Gun re-bluing, anybody?

[djf]

Anybody have any XP re-bluing guns? Recommendations? Products? Techniques?

I have an Ivers-Johnson .22 revolver and used Perma-Blue on it an would describe the results as "so so..."

Am I missing something?

[djf]

Thanks!

In fact it may be a question of me just re-doing it a few times. The guy at the gun show where I bought it said when he had a shop he would do 3 or 4 apps with it before he got the best results.

Like I said, I’m just trying it because I like to try new things and be able to do a halfway decent job. Or at least not do a half-azzd job!

[NVDave]

I would recommend that people not equipped with the right equipment never do hot blueing.

The chemicals are highly corrosive - and are composed mostly of sodium hydroxide. Your clothes, shoes, skin, you name it are all fair game if you splash some out of the tank. The blueing salts will be nearly 300F when at operational temperature, and HIGHLY reactive on anything they touch.

Disposal is problematic as well.

[yarddog]

I can’t name any offhand but there are some spray on finishes available now which are supposed to be reasonably durable and easy to apply.

I am sure Brownells would have them.

I have had pretty bad luck with cold blue except oddly enough, the very first one I did. I had a Colt Challenger (a slightly cheaper version of the Woodsman) which was mechanically excellent but most of the bluing was worn off.

I bought some cold blue, read the instructions and it came out fine. I am certain that the steel used in the gun was why it worked. I later traded it to a gunsmith for a near new 03A3 Springfield with a Redfield receiver sight, a sourdough front and a thousand rounds of Lake City, Match.

The guy I traded it to was a gunsmith and he did not recognize it as a cold blue until I told him. He then smelled it and then recognized it was. He said I did a great job on it, but actually it just happened to turn out right.

[NVDave]

That could be. You will want to “card” the finish with a .005” bristle wire brush between coats.

Here’s what is going on in all blueing processes: You’re rusting the gun.

There are two types of rust on steel: “red” rust (Fe02) and “black” rust (Fe03). You’re causing black rust to happen, and black rust is complete oxidation of the outer layer of steel, which cannot progress any further.

When you get a “light” blue, it means that the oxidation didn’t happen as easily on the light areas as on the dark areas. Something kept the metal in the light area from oxidizing as completely. That “something” could be oil, it could be finish, or it could be that you didn’t apply the chemical wet enough in that area, (ie you applied the cold blue solution unevenly).

This is where carding comes in. You card the surface of the steel, getting rid of any loose oxidation, stirring up a little surface fuzz, and then you apply the chemicals again.

BTW — when blueing, you really do need to disassemble the gun to get a good result. The cold blueing chemicals work well when you’re going to do touch-ups on scratches and such, but for a whole-gun job, a complete break-down is necessary.

[djf]

This one is very, very similar to the Ruger .22 Target revolver...

Nice little gun fer plinking around!

[djf]

Thanks!

I knew it was actually some form of rusting that was going on.

One of the sites I hit when I searched Perma Blue said to do 2 to 4 apps, and then, when you are as happy as you can be, RE-OIL it.

The oil supposedly evening out the results.

We’ll see. App #2 is on it now.

[djf]

Thanks!

I knew it was actually some form of rusting that was going on.

One of the sites I hit when I searched Perma Blue said to do 2 to 4 apps, and then, when you are as happy as you can be, RE-OIL it.

The oil supposedly evening out the results.

We’ll see. App #2 is on it now.

[NVDave]

Yes, you should re-oil after the blueing process - any blueing process. Brownells sells a product for that too:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1086/Product/WATER_DISPLACING_OIL__AFTER_BLUING__RUST_PREVENTION

You could use WD-40, but NB that you should apply some other oil after the WD-40 has displaced the water and dries off, because WD-40 will dry off one day. That’s its job. CLP is as good as most anything out there, with the exception of very high-tech rust preventers.

[mamelukesabre]

Rust bluing? People still do that? I thought that went away 40 years ago.

[yarddog]

I just looked it up and one finish which you simply spray on and bake in an oven is Brownells’ Gun-Kote.

It is said to be much more durable than blue.

[NVDave]

On the kind of firearms you buy at Walmart, yes, you no longer see it. Most of what you see these days on cheaper firearms is a spray-on finish or parkerizing of some sort.

On the kind of firearms that cost $3K and up? Bespoke shotguns and rifles?

Oh, no, it never went anywhere. And it won’t, either.

Here’s why you might not want to do hot caustic blueing:

1. You have any parts that are soldered or brazed on the gun. On fine shotguns, for example, the ribs are soldered on.

2. You have a gun that you’re not going to completely disassemble to blue.

3. You don’t want to set up a set of tanks for hot blueing.

When you’re making a firearm for someone who has been waiting for a year or more for their gun to be completed, and they’re paying $3K to $10K (and up) for it, then waiting the two to three weeks for a slow rust blue job isn’t that much of a hardship.

For the guy who bought a used gun for $400 that is all banged and scratched up, he’s not going to wait the three weeks, nor pay the money, for a slow rust blue job.

For those who want a faster rust blue job, there’s chemicals like this:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7604/Product/BELGIAN_BLUE

The description given in the product is a “fast rust blue” but it is still in the category of “rust blueing.”

Here’s a video from Midway USA doing fast rust blueing. Larry is calling this “slow rust blueing,” but he’s wrong. This is “fast rust blueing” because you can be done in, oh, four hours.

Slow rust bluing is very different, and involves a “sweat box” and several weeks of attention.

Here’s one of the chemical mixtures for slow rust blueing:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22820/Product/CLASSIC_RUST_BLUE

If you don’t like buying a solution, you can find references to the slow rust solutions in older gunsmithing books (ie, any book published before 1960 should contain something on SRB).

In SRB, you have a “sweat box” made of plastic-lined wood that can be closed to be air-tight-ish into which you put the part. A 100 watt light bulb is placed at the bottom of the sweat box, and above that, you have a pan of nitric acid. The heated acid gives off corrosive fumes, which coat the part evenly.

Every three to four days, you pull the parts out of the sweat box, card them off and put them back into the sweat box. The total process might take as long as three+ weeks.

The biggest reason why the market got away from rust bluing wasn’t the result: it was the time involved. You can’t do rust blueing in huge industrial processes. You can do hot blue jobs in industrial lots - once the surface prep and degreasing is done, you just move the parts from tank to tank to tank in sequence and you get the results you want. There’s no carding between coats.

The reason why rust blueing fell out of favor was never the results. Genuine slow rust blueing is the most durable of all types of blueing. Lots of time spent in corrosive fumes means that the black rust has lots of time to form and become more solid.

[NVDave]

Parkerizing is a pretty simple process that could conceivably done at home by people. You’d need two steel tanks, one of hot wash, the other of hot phosphate solution, and a third running water rinse.

The process is very simple and almost foolproof. It also hides a *few* surface imperfections.

[ExpatGator]

I make a living doing bluing and other gunsmithing/gunbuilding. There are some processes that can be done at home without huge investments. Research the different processes and figure out what works for you. Any cold bluing from a bottle is crap.

[Elderberry]

Brownells has a cold-blue product called Oxpho-blue.
Not as durable as hot bluing or rust bluing, but it is very simple to apply. Just keep putting on coats until it is dark enough for you.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1072/Product/OXPHO_BLUE_reg_

[ExpatGator]

High dollar guns are still rust blued. I do it on some restorations.

[djf]

Well, when I got the gun there was some very fine rust on the end of the barrel.

I was able to get that off, and the surface (even under magnification) was still extremely smooth. But the color was off.

So I figured I’d try it. And I concentrated on the barrel.

Four passes of the Perma-Blue.
In between each application, I wiped it down good with a clean rag and isopropyl.

After the final app and wiping it down, used some mil supp gun oil.

The results are quite good!! Except now the barrel is the best looking part!

;-(

Patience, patience...

Thanks to all for their suggestions/ideas!

[ExpatGator]

I apply Gunkote, Duracote and am a certified applier of CeraKote. I find Gun Kote and Durakote to be much easier scratched than a properly applied bluing. CeraKote is more durable than the other 2 sprayon coatings.

[yarddog]

I have not used any of the spray-on finishes tho I have read that some of them are really great. I noticed Brownell’s claims Gun-Kote is more durable than bluing.

The most beautiful bluing I have ever seen was on a very early Astra 400. It actually was blue, not black as most bluing jobs are. Very close was a model 98-09 Argentine Mauser made by DWM. I got it unfired from Walter Craig in Selma, Alabama. The workmanship was better than most custom guns. Considering those guns were made in the hundreds of thousands or even millions that is pretty impressive.

[dangerdoc]

It’s been a few years since I’ve had a gun re-blued but I would think you could get it done for less than $200. On the other hand, if you want it to look like a $50 gun, do it yourself, if you want it to look like a $500 gun, get a professional finish.