Posted on 04/16/2010 4:09:24 AM PDT by Daisyjane69
That was the link to the original post. And I want to once again thank everyone who replied on the thread with advice, and via FReepmail.
My beloved neighbor passed away on Monday night and truly, I miss her already.
She was her spunky self right until the end, I hear. It wasn't until Monday that she woke up and decided not to "get up," choosing instead to take medication. She only had to take pain medication for one week, and only occasionally. She fell asleep, and that was that.
All four of her living adult children (out of seven) made it to St. George on time, as did 35 of her 37 grandchildren. From what I heard, this past Sunday was one enormous picture-taking day. We finally had a beautiful sunny day so there were photographs galore: Grandma with the grandsons, Grandma with the granddaughters, Grandma with all of them. Taken on the outside swing! A picture with all her children. She was alert and awake enough to give personal keepsakes to each and every grandchild. We should all be so lucky.
She was my gardening buddy, here. I notice that one of the three roses we planted together last fall has a bud that might be blooming by Tuesday...the day of the service. If so, I plan to bring it with me. That is a part of a joke she and I used to have: When people would ask us why the heck we were trying to plant roses in the desert, we would say "Because we girls want our flowers while we're still here to enjoy them!" LOL That's why. And if that thing is blooming Tuesday, she is going to get it.
Thanks again everyone, for answering the question: "How does a nice Catholic gal pay proper respect to her LDS neighbor?"
A very touching story. It should remind us orthodox Christians that LDS families often seem to live as Christians should, but do not.
Ummmm LDS ARE Christians.
Thank you for your encouraging vignette. It is a reminder that life in America is not really about the drama of politics but of ordinary human beings relating to one another. You have painted a picture with words that invites contemplation.
“Ummmm LDS ARE Christians.”
Actually in the scope of Orthodox Christianity, Mormonism is considered a cult. Nearly all of their doctrinal positions are opposed to what Christianity has held to be truth since its inception.
A touching reflection of your friendship. Condolences on the loss of your friend.
They are not Christian and all Christian churches require they become baptised into Christianity if they do decide to join a Christian church.
Lutherans won’t give communian to Baptists. Does that mean Baptists arent’ Christians too?
LDS ARE Christians. They worship CHRIST -duh.
Principle 16 A person is baptized once. Because of the unfailing nature of God’s promise, and because of God’s once-for-all action in Christ. Baptism is not repeated.
Application 16B ‘Re-baptism’ is to be avoided since it causes doubt, focusing attention on the always-failing adequacy of our action or our faith. Baptized persons who come to new depth of conviction in faith are invited to an Affirmation of Baptism in the life of the congregation.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints poses an interesting test case for us. In Luther’s day, questions concerning the validity of Baptism usually related to the liturgical ingredients of the ceremony. Few groups claiming to be Christian but unrecognized by the church catholic were baptizing. So Luther identifies two chief parts in the sacrament: water and God’s Word:
What is Baptism? Baptism is not merely water, but it is water used according to God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
What is this Word of God? As recorded in Matthew 28:19, our Lord Jesus Christ said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Small Catechism)
Today, we ask more than "Was water used?" and "Were the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ used?" Our concern must focus on faithfulness to the Word of God. When Christians baptize, they do so trusting that God will act to join the baptized to the life of the Holy Trinity—one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This faith is found where a genuine Christian Baptism has occurred. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not hold the traditional Christian teaching about the Holy Trinity. Rather, it seems to treat each person of the Trinity as a separate deity. Because the faith of the church is different from Mormon teaching, whether or not Mormon baptism is a Christian Baptism is a valid question. "Outside the context of trinitarian life and teaching no Christian Baptism takes place, whatever liturgical formula may be used." (The Use of the Means of Grace, application 24D)
The last statement moves us beyond issues about the liturgical rite and points us to consider the teaching of the church and its faith in a trinitarian God. Although Mormons may use water — and lots of it — and while they may say "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," their teaching about the nature of God is substantially different from that of orthodox, creedal Christianity. Because the Mormon understanding of the Word of God is not the same as the Christian understanding, it is correct to say that Christian Baptism has not taken place. A former Mormon joining an ELCA congregation may be offered Christian Baptism (not rebaptism).
This answer poses a difficult pastoral question. If a former Mormon is anxious to embrace orthodox Christian teaching and practice and is looking to make a radical break from former memberships, then the invitation to Christian Baptism is likely to be welcomed. On the other hand, former Mormons seeking to maintain continuity with Mormonism may see the suggestion that they are not baptized or have not been Christian as an attack on who they have understood themselves to be.
Finding a way to welcome former Mormons who are not ready for a complete break with their past fellowship may require a gentle and loving pastoral hand. Maintaining the integrity of God’s act in Baptism as well as careful pastoral care are both required.
I a Lutheran wants to join the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints.... they are BAPTISED.. so from that do we then say that Lutherans aren’t Christians???
Look I am just making the point that each Christian demonination has its own interpretation of scripture, baptism, etc.
The worship of JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Savior ties us all together........
THe petty finger pointing calling this or that demonination non Christian is ridiculous. there was day when many Protestant denominations said Roman Catholics were not Christians some still believe that ...even though they were the first Christian Church!!!
Again, that was confused, rewrite it so that I can understand it.
I don't know what your point is, Mormonism is not a Christian religion and that is why it is not accepted as such by Christians, Lutherans are accepted as Christians and their Baptism is accepted as Baptism into the Christian faith.
Mormonism is it's own, unique, non Christian religion, created by a man named Joseph Smith in the pre Civil War era.
LUTHERAN baptism is NOT accepted by Baptists. That does NOT mean that Lutherans are not Christians. In the same order. LDS baptism is NOT accepted by Lutherans that does NOT mean that Mormons are NOT Christians.
Saying Mormonism is not Christian and it was created by Joseph Smith is like saying that Lutheranism is not Christian as was created by Martin Luther...
WHAT DEFINES a Christian?????
ACCEPTANCE of JESUS CHRIST as your savior.....
Mormons just like other christian demoninations accept christ as their savior.
whether all the denominations agree on everything is moot.
I find it sad when christians point fingers and think they can judge other denomination members’ relationship with Christ.
Perhaps that enthusiam and effort should be focused upon those who have not accepted Christ...
They do all agree, the Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Methodists, Lutherans, Assembly of God and on and on all agree that Mormonism is a different religion than Christianity.
Here is the Catholic view in short version.
Q: I read recently that the Catholic Church had rejected Mormon baptism, since their view of Christ and the Trinity is so unusual. But I have to ask: Are Mormons considered separated brothers and sisters? While their views are strange to say the least, they are still separated, and we should reach out to them. If we view them as something other than separated, doesn't that exclude ecumenism? I know that many view them as a cult, but aren't cult members separated as well?
A: The reason Mormons are not considered separated brethren is not because they aren't "separated" from the Church-they are-but they aren't "brethren" in the sense required.
The phrase separated brethren refers to those who, though separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, have been justified through baptism and are thus brethren in Christ. The Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) of Vatican II teaches that "all who have been justified by faith in baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
Because Mormonism is polytheistic and rejects the Trinity, Mormon baptism is not valid, and Mormons are not considered separated brethren. For the same reason, outreach to them, while certainly a good thing, is not ecumenism, though it can include dialogue and social cooperation as well as efforts to evangelize them.
Roman Catholics PRAY TO saints.... THAT is believing in multiple gods to some, yet I would not say they are not Christians.
Look, I am not Mormon, I disagree with a huge portion of their beliefs. Here is the question...
WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?
This question assumes that there is one and only one correct definition of the term “Christian.” However, depending upon your understanding of the nature of truth, many definitions may be “true” to various groups:
To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is “true” to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be “born-again” to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.
To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is “true” to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs about the nature of sacrements, their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church’s tradition.
To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed “Jesus is Lord.” Their definition was “true” to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.
And so on, with other faith groups.
Each group has their own definition of “Christian” which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, the cultures in which they are implanted, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word “Christian.”
There is no consensus on what the “correct” definition of “Christian” is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. Therefore questions like “Are you a Christian?” or “How many Christians are there in the U.S.” are only meaningful:
Within a single denomination, or among a group of similarly-minded denominations.
The point is that all Christian churches do agree on one thing, that Mormonism is not a Christian religion.
You seem to keep avoiding that unanimity.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
Believe what you will, I will save the judgement of another’s salvation to God.
You are trying to assist the Mormon cult by assisting them in convincing Christians that they can join the polytheistic religion and remain Christians.
You say that you are not Mormon, but are you a Christian? You call the difference between being a Mormon and being a Christian “petty”?
Ansel is correct. Mormons are NOT Christians in any way shape or form. And the differences are not ‘petty’.
Having the name Jesus Christ in the name of your church doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than putting ‘auto repairs’ on the side of your garage makes you an auto mechanic.
It is their theology that keeps them from being Christians. The LDS preach a false Christ. They use the same terms (salvation, God, Jesus, atonement, ‘the church’, heaven, but mean VERY VERY different things. The “Jesus” they claim is a created being, a victim, the spirit brother of Lucifer, had to earn His Godhood, His blood is not sufficient to save (works, church membership, tithing, temple rites, secret handshakes are also required to get to the presence of God), and He wasn’t always God.
THAT is not only NOT the Christ of the Bible, but is a direct insult to my Savior.
I spent several years as a Mormon and was pretty good at it, but it wasn’t enough, I was ‘religious’ but didn’t have a relationship with Jesus and the LDS church actually TEACHES AGAINST THAT.
There are many other differences I could go into if you would like.
AFA, judging, while we cannot judge another person’s heart, Christians ARE called to judge those who seek to claim to be Christians and to ‘cut the ground from under’ those who preach false doctrine.
2 Corinthians 11:12-13
12. And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
BTW, I worked at a Baptist church for several years and while adult baptism was encouraged, those baptized as infants could make a public confession and affirmation of baptism instead, so they DID accept Lutheran baptism.
Please see my tagline. If you wish further information or links to what the LDS really believe, feel free to contact me for some resource links.
I never said the differences were petty. I said the fingerpointing ia petty.
For example you call the LDS church a cult.
Based on what? That you disagree with them? That they try to convert people? ( As a Baptist you are called to do that too) That they tithe? ( again, I bet you do that)
Or is it just that you disagree with them? Should Mormons call the Baptist church a cult?
I am a Christian. Was a Lutheran, baptised into a Baptist church..... and NO they did not accept my Lutheran baptism.. and NO when I go to a Lutheran church they won’t let me take communian.
My husband’s family is Mormon and they are the kindest nicest people you would ever want to meet. They love Jesus and daily thank him for their blessings. I have never been shunned, or treated with disrespect by them. I have not seen hypocrisy. They live what they beleive.
I’ll be damned if I will point fingers because a lot of their interpretation of Bible is different than mine.
Obviously we disagree and that is fine with me. God will sort it all out in the end. Churches are made by MAN. Salvation is of God.
HOW we worship differs.... I suspect God understands...after all we are just human.
Have a wonderful day.
Being nice doesn’t get you to heaven, Jesus does. And the LDS church believe in a FALSE Christ. That is not ‘petty’ at all. It isn’t ‘how they live’ that is the issue, it is WHAT THE BELIEVE. My GOD, defend your faith woman!
I call the LDS church a ‘cult’ not based upon tithing (which by the way i DON”T do - because I do not limit it to only 10% - I give as I am led which is often more) - nor because of their evangelism. I call them a ‘cult’ because they fit ALL THREE DEFINITIONS of a “cult”.
They are a cult anthropologically - a religion
They are a cult sociologically - a high demand group that exerts unnecessary and abusive control.
And they are a cult theologically - their theology is opposed to both the Bible and Orthodox Christianity.
The LDS have called Christians far worse than a ‘cult’.
If you are a Christian as you claim, then you would not adopt a ‘live and let live attitude” rather you would (and should) be aggressive in teaching them the message of Salvation by Grace thru faith ALONE, something the LDS church does not teach in the least.
It is not loving to let someone go to Hell!!!
Was it a ‘fundamentalist Baptist church’? Because they are rather rigid, but both the Southern and American Baptist Churches I worked at DID accept Lutheran baptism/confirmation.
And frankly I am sick and tired of people who defend the LDS church and don’t witness to them while the LDS TRASH, STEAL AND INSULT MY SAVIOR, TRASH THE BIBLE, LIE ABOUT CHRIST AND MAKE A MOCKERY OF HIS SACRIFICE.
CHRIST TOLD THE TRUTH AND DREW LINES IN THE SAND, HE MADE IT CLEAR AND THE LDS TWIST IT. AND I WILL NOT LET THEM INSULT MY LORD AND MY GOD.
If you do, then YOUR faith is also suspect, because you are not following the commandments of God either.
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