Posted on 09/15/2009 9:35:52 AM PDT by PilotDave
When the witness asked the pilot if he was all right, the pilot answered that he was, but he seemed to be unaware that his airplane had impacted poles during the landing.
The pilot subsequently asked the witness if the wildfires had reached his ranch. The witness stated that he didn't know where the pilot's ranch was. The pilot then asked the witness if he could put some beer that his brother left in the airplane, in the witness' truck. Another witness asked what happened, and the pilot said, "I don't know, I land here almost every other day." They all reported that the pilot seemed impaired, and unaware as to his whereabouts. Two of the witnesses indicated that they smelled alcohol in the airplane, but not on the pilot.
According to the witnesses, the pilot appeared to be looking for something in the airplane. The pilot stated that he was looking for a bottle of wine, which the witness found beneath one of the aft seats. Both the pilot and the witness then exited the airplane with the bottle of wine, which was 1/3 full. Another witness put the wine bottle in his toolbox. The pilot then asked the witnesses to make up a story about what they had seen. They agreed to tell people that they were away at lunch when the accident occurred, The pilot asked the remaining witness if he was in New Mexico, and was told that he wasn't. About 1500, the pilot was contacted by police via cell phone. According to the police statement, the pilot told authorities that he "experienced a pressurization problem."
(Excerpt) Read more at ntsb.gov ...
They also didn't say that you weren't drunk. Therefore, you must have been drunk?
They said they were unable to test him because he left the scene, twice. They said he was seen removing and hiding partially consumed alchohol containers from the plane.
Yes, a partial bottle of wine from the cabin, and some beer from the wing baggage compartment (which is inaccessible during flight). I'm hardly every drink alcohol, and even I can't get a buzz from 2/3'rds of a bottle of wine. Of course, we don't know how much the pilot had to drink before departing.
They said the plane reeked of alchohol and that he was the only occupant.
Multiple witnesses also said that the pilot did not reek of alcohol.
They said he was disoriented to the point of not knowing he landed on a street or even what state he was in.
This is certainly evidence of some impairment. But, it's not conclusively due to intoxication.
They said he asked witnesses to lie to the authorities.
Not cool, and evidence alone to revoke the pilot's license. But, not evidence he was intoxicated.
They said he was only at 13,000, where he wouldn’t even need suplemental ox, let alone cabin pressure to operate normally.
I think you need to go back to ground school, if you were ever there. The FAA requires supplemental oxygen if you are above 12,500 feet for more than 30 minutes.
And the AIM recommends supplemental oxygen above 10,000 feet during the day. Of course, it points out that other than night vision, most pilots don't experience hypoxia below 12,000 feet, unless there are other factors like carbon monoxide poisoning (from smoking or exhaust) or even small amounts of alcohol.
Do you think they might have liked to pull a blood sample?
Absolutely. And if they had done so, you might have had the authoritative substantiation for an accusation of flying while intoxicated. But, they didn't, so there's no definitive evidence of it. There is circumstantial evidence, but there are plausible alternative explanations that cast reasonable doubt.
Actually, the NTSB did cite witnesses that claimed the interior of the cabin reeked of alcohol. But you are correct, the NTSB didn't state it.
Thanks for the link to the conclusion. I read the full narrative and it didn't support an accusation of flying while intoxicated.
Lower than that, even. I wasn’t exactly in good shape at the time when I did a long trip to CO in the ‘90s and gave it enough time to acclimate (from my home here in Nashville at 500 feet) up to Leadville and Cripple Creek at over 10,000. After leaving Cripple Creek, headed down to Colorado Springs at half that altitude. I saw all these strapping firefighters a little older than I was at the time, and they had just flown in from NYC, all huffing and puffing walking a few feet. I joked and said it was a good thing they hadn’t gone straight to Cripple Creek, they would’ve needed oxygen tanks.
“I think you need to go back to ground school, if you were ever there. The FAA requires supplemental oxygen if you are above 12,500 feet for more than 30 minutes”
I teach ground school. He was not over 12,500 for over 30 in an unpressurized aircraft. Therefore there was no requirement for ox. He could have, in fact legally climbed to 14,000 and remained there for the remaining 25 or so minutes and been completely within the rules. Here is the past from FAR pt 91 if you want to read it.
It figures you had a slight relationship to Mr. Swayze. I’ll also bet you’re a defense attorney. Or maybe a professional hair splitter?
Sec. 91.211
Supplemental oxygen.
(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.
Mr. Swayze did make some news in my humble hometown of Ponca City
Oklahoma (probably in the late 1990s?).
A short note appeared in our local “The Ponca City News” that Mr.
Swayze had landed at our municipal airport, gotten his plane refueled,
and ordered some chow to be brought to his plane from our (rather good)
airport restaurant.
I came by the news report when a relative mailed the news clipping to
me. When I later heard mentions of Mr. Swayze likely “flying
while buzzed”, I wondered if he wasn’t a bit of a lost soul.
Anyway, his earthly travails are ended. And I did generally like him
as an actor/personality.
“They [NTSB] said the plane reeked of alchohol”
~~~~~~~~~~
Wrong. The NTSB did not state that.”
Sorry, you didn’t read the full narative, which the below qoute is copied from. You just read the summary. Follow my link at the top for the rest of the story...
As for not smelling anything on Pat, he was outside the aircraft in the windy desert.
“Two of the witnesses indicated that they smelled alcohol in the airplane”
“Sorry, you didn’t read the full narative, which the below qoute is copied from. You just read the summary. Follow my link at the top for the rest of the story...”
~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I did read the full narrative AS WELL AS the probable cause findings that you did NOT include in your post that indicated NO link to alcohol.
OK, I am not quibbling about your statement as I take people at their word the first time:
You originally stated:
“They [NTSB] said the plane reeked of alchohol”
No. The NTSB never used the verb ‘reek’. In fact, the NTSB never said the plane smelled or used any other verb of alcohol.
The NTSB investigator(s) quoted two only witnesses who reported smelling alcohol, but they themselves did not use the verb reeking.
Furthermore, there was a third witness who “ at no time did he smell alcohol on the pilot. “
Reeking is a coloring word. Perhaps you were trying to build a case linking the crash to alcohol yet that is NOT what the NTSB concluded.
The NTSB did remark on only one odor:
“The airplane cabin had a strong odor of tobacco products. “
In flying, as in selected other professions were carelessness can lead to disaster, it is all about precision in understanding words and directions as well as in the execution.
So, take it up with the NTSB if you have a problem with their finding.
;-)
EOM on this topic.
I am also a fan of PS. This story I find amusing. I’m sure we could have been friends.
“Multiple witnesses also said that the pilot did not reek of alcohol.”
The police report sez otherwise... Poated below(not that you’ll be swayed). Here’s the money qoute. “One tipster stated that the crew had observed the entire incident and had been overheard that day telling several people that Swayze was intoxicated.”
“I’m hardly every drink alcohol, and even I can’t get a buzz from 2/3’rds of a bottle of wine”
I’m a proficient drinker and 2/3 of a bottle of wine would get me going. BS!
http://www.avweb.com/other/swayze024b.html
“They also didn’t say that you weren’t drunk. Therefore, you must have been drunk?”
I would be suspected of that. Until I supplied a blood sample to prove I wasn’t. I’d also know what state I was in and that I’d ripped the wing off the plane, which he didn’t. The NTSB did request a blood sample in time, but Pat didn’t know where he was. Read the police report.
I see. If I were one of your students, I'd be asking for my money back. Because you wrote:
When I called you on it, you've added all kinds of qualifications. But you won't admit that your original statement was wrong.
And you have apparently invented some facts:
On June 1, 2000, about 1015 mountain standard time, a Cessna 414A, N414PS, was substantially damaged when it impacted light poles in a housing development during an off-airport landing near Prescott Valley, Arizona. [...] The cross-country flight originated at Van Nuys Airport (VNY), Van Nuys, California Van Nuys, California, at 0821, with an intended destination of Las Vegas Municipal Airport (LVS), Las Vegas, New Mexico.
So, the NTSB report informs us that the flight lasted 2 hours. But, there's some additional information:
A review of radar data revealed that the airplane was on a relatively straight and level flight track, at 12,900 feet, until 43 nautical miles east of the Needles VOR. At 0904, the airplane initiated a spiraling descent to the left. The radar data then depicted a very erratic flight path for about 1 hour, during which, the airplane's altitude varied between 6,000 and 9,000 feet.
So, some problem apparently developed 43 minutes into the flight. It's not relevant other than to question your dubious proclamation, but how are you absolutely sure that the pilot wasn't above 12,500 MSL before 13 minutes into the flight? Van Nuys is at 802 MSL, and the 414 climbs at 1580 fpm at sea level.
It figures you had a slight relationship to Mr. Swayze. I’ll also bet you’re a defense attorney. Or maybe a professional hair splitter?
No, I'm just an amateur comedian. I'm obviously not very good, or my audience is just too clueless to recognize a line from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet: Before you die there is something you should know about us, Lone Star.
Lone Starr: What?
Dark Helmet: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Lone Starr: What's that make us?
Dark Helmet: Absolutely nothing! Which is what you are about to become.
And for the doubly-clueless, that scene is a parody of The Empire Strikes Back.
It's an interesting police report, especially the part which says that the three men were subsequently cited for providing false information to police. They aren't exactly unimpeachable witnesses. Maybe that's the NTSB thought?
However, I will reiterate that I have simply insisted that the NTSB report doesn't substantiate any claim that the pilot was intoxicated. And as Sparko has pointed out, the NTSB itself concludes that the accident was caused by a pressurization problem.
Was alcohol a factor? Maybe. It's probable that smoking was a contributing factor, and I also consider that to be self-inflicted. According to the NTSB report, it appears that some maintenance issues were also ignored.
I’m a proficient drinker and 2/3 of a bottle of wine would get me going. BS!
2/3 of a 750 ml bottle of wine is about 2 1/2 servings. Of course, 2/3 of a large bottle of wine is much more, but I don't care for the vintages that are packaged in that form.
And therein lies the heart of the matter: without the blood sample, you can only be suspected of being intoxicated.
But, you have it backwards: The blood sample doesn't prove you are not intoxicated -- it proves you are intoxicated. It's an important distinction, because the burden of proof is on the accuser, not you.
“Was alcohol a factor? Maybe”
I’ll take that as a victory. You finally admitted that alchohol might be a factor. Also notice that PS flew for an hour! at altitudes between 6 and 9 thousand feet. More than enough time for any hypoxia effects to wear off. He also got three witnesses charged with giving false statements to the police. But hey, he had enough connections/lawyers to get a favorable NTSB report. Just like the Kennedy’s did. Screw the little people.
You didn't win anything, except possibly "idiot poster of the day".
You finally admitted that alchohol might be a factor.
You weren't paying attention. I didn't "admit" anything, and simply repeated almost the same thing I wrote earlier:
I then followed with:
I wrote essentially the same thing in my immediately prior posting, which you conveniently ignored:
So, if you want to do a victory dance over something, you could have done it long ago. But either way, you still aren't able to distinguish between the conclusions in the NTSB report and your opinion about what might have happened.
Also notice that PS flew for an hour! at altitudes between 6 and 9 thousand feet. More than enough time for any hypoxia effects to wear off.
The NTSB found evidence of exhaust products in the cabin pressurization system, and concluded that carbon monoxide was a contributing factor. That doesn't wear off quickly. At room temperature, the half-life of CO in the blood is 3-4 hours. Medical treatment is usually 100% oxygen, which reduces the half-life to 30-90 minutes.
[remaining conspiracy rants aren't worth my time]
“He also got three witnesses charged with giving false statements to the police. But hey, he had enough connections/lawyers to get a favorable NTSB report. Just like the Kennedy’s did. Screw the little people.”
Don't ask me why I am wasting time on this theory of yours, but your stubbornness is amusing to say the least.
This may be your favorite Patrick Swayze story, and it has now become my favorite PS thread - not.
PilotDave, I see where this is going - a place that I, and possibly “justlurking”, had hoped you were not taking us to.
* Implying that Patrick Swayze is a card carrying-Kennedy style person
* Playing the “poor pitiful me” or “screw the little people” card
* Implying the NTSB ignored alcohol as a contributory cause.
* Implying the NTSB was influenced in changing their findngs of probable due to pressure by Mr. Swayze’s laywers
and then, the ultimate:
* Blaming a man who can now no longer defend himself
If I didn't know better, I'd say you had your butt chewed by a good flight instructor during one of your earlier flight efforts and it is still chafing.
Or perhaps you had a near collision on a runway and an NTSB investigator read you the riot act.
Or perhaps some “really rich” guy in a Gulf Stream slighted you and you suffered an indignity.
In any event, as justlurking said in the post below,
“[remaining conspiracy rants aren't worth my time] “
I too am am done with your tinfoil theories on the flight incident LAX00FA213.
If I may be permitted to speak for justlurking, we hope you have a fabulous day. If you are flying, stay safe.
;-)
I give up. You guys are too smart for me.
From his bio at hollywood.com
“In the 1990s, Swayze experienced increasing problems with alcoholism. His father had died of the disease in 1982, and Swayze admitted to lapsing in and out of periods of heavy drinking. His sister had committed suicide (by drug overdose)in 1994, and it contributed to the tailspin that landed Swayze in rehab”
From his bio at hollywood.com
“In the 1990s, Swayze experienced increasing problems with alcoholism. His father had died of the disease in 1982, and Swayze admitted to lapsing in and out of periods of heavy drinking. His sister had committed suicide (by drug overdose)in 1994, and it contributed to the tailspin that landed Swayze in rehab””
PilotDave !
All that may be fine and well but the NTSB report does not tie alcohol to the crash. QED
As our dear pResident says so often, “Let me be perfectly clear”
I was only interested in accuracy; that you not quote the NTSB report out of context and that you then not degenerate into a tinfoil tail spin of little people always getting screwed.
Don't give up.
Don't start drinking (and still fly ;)
Catch you around.
PS
I just happen to like little things like accuracy.
You’re a good sport.
A big Welcome to FReeRepublic, by the way!
What he said.
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