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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Battleships! OK; here we go!

Naval weapons of WW2, one of my favorite topics.

First let’s talk about what was on hand in the US Navy, what was being built and what was being planned.

During the years leading up to WW1 and during WW1, the “dreadnought” battleship was considered the ultimate standard of national naval power. All major nations, even mostly land-locked Austria-Hungary, embarked on construction or procurement programs to build these steel monsters. The very first one, HMS Dreadnought, entered service in 1906. She sported 10 12” main guns, displaced about 19,000 tons, and had a speed of 21 knots based on a steam turbine power (as opposed to the less efficient expansion piston). The USA had actually planned two similar ships, USS South Carolina and USS Michigan, but budget constraints kept them from being the first ships finished.

Kaiser Wilhelm decided he wanted his own dreadnoughts and the race was on. The ships got bigger guns; first 12”, then 13.5”, then 14”, 15”, and finally 16”. The ships got bigger, up to 42,000 tons in HMS Hood. Oil replaced coal to make them faster. But these ships were very expensive and every nation was breaking the bank to build them.

Then came the naval conferences and treaties of the early 1920’s. It was decided that the ships would not exceed 35,000 tons and not carry guns larger than 14”. Tonnage ratios were established between nations to keep a naval balance of power. However, after 1925, no new battleships were built.

If you wish further reading on these naval arms races, Robert Massie’s “Dreadnought” and “Castles of Steel” are excellent books.

By the mid 1930’s, tensions mounted, existing battlefleets were getting old, and the old naval races were re-kindled. New battleships were planned, but in the United States and Britain, they were planned under the treaty restrictions. Thus, the British KGV class displaced 35,000 tons and had 10 14” guns. The first new American ships, USS North Dakota and USS Washington, were similarly designed. However, after design began, it was known that the Japanese were not honoring the treaty obligations, and rumors of the Yamato class were getting out. Thus, the designs of the North Carolina class were changed and the gun systems were changed to the 16” 45 cal guns previously used on the old West Virginia class.

The South Dakotas (South Dakota, Massachusetts, Indiana, Alabama) were also designed as 35,000 ton treaty ships, but differed from the North Carolina in that they were built with a much shorter length in order to increase armor thickness. The North Carolina and Alabama still exist today as museum ships (Wilmington NC & Mobile AL). I’ve toured both, and you can see the differences in how the ships were built, particularly how much more cramped the crew accommodations were on the South Dakotas.

It was those six ships of the North Carolina and South Dakota class that were still under construction when this article was published. North Carolina was the first commissioned, and she was actually doing sea trials in the North Atlantic during the fateful cruise of the Bismarck. There was some talk of using the North Carolina to intercept Bismarck should Bismarck approach US waters.

The follow-on generation of ships, of which the first two are mentioned here, are the Iowas. No treaty restrictions were considered in planning from keel up. Planned at 45,000 tons, they also had improved 16” 50 cal. guns. Bigger, better armored, faster and better armed, they were the height of battleship technology. Ever. I read a study comparing the fighting qualities of the Iowas vs. the Yamatos, and based on fire control, rate of fire, speed, and seaworthiness, the study concluded that the Iowas had a better than even chance even though on paper you’d think the Yamatos had the advantage due to bigger (18”) guns and more weight (68,000 tons).

Eventually, four Iowas were commissioned (Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin & New Jersey). Three more began construction (Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio) but were scrapped before completion. The Iowa damaged her bow in the late 1940’s or early 1950s, and the bow of the incomplete Kentucky was used as a replacement.

The two ocean navy bill of 1940 authorized an even larger follow-on class; the Montanas, which would displace about 56,000-60,000 tons and have 12 16” guns. No construction ever began on those monsters; by that time it was apparent that carriers were more valuable.

Yes, battleships were expensive, VERY expensive. One needs only to tour them to see just how complex they were for their day. They were the cutting edge and highest form of a technology that no longer exists.

Carriers of the WW2 era, on the other hand, while expensive, were not as expensive as today. American CV’s were lightly armored, and had wooden as opposed to armored flight decks (unlike British or some Japanese carriers). Many carriers were built from modified hulls of other ships Lexington and Saratoga were started as battlecruisers, finished as carriers. The Independence class light carriers were quick expedients built on the hulls of Cleveland class light cruisers. At the time, all you needed was a hull, a propulsion plant, a hanger deck and a flight deck. Of course, there is more to that. The epitome of American carrier production was the Essex class. Several nice examples of Essex class carriers still exist as museums. Lexington is in Corpus Christi, Intrepid in New York, and Yorktown in Charleston. All were extensively modified during their long and productive careers, so you don’t get the same preserved WW2 feel that you get on the battleships. I’ve toured Lexington, and you can tell that the same level of investment was not required in her initial construction as in a contemporary battleship.

Some other proof regarding relative cost is found in the production statistics. From 1937-1944, the United States commissioned 10 new battleships, construction of six began before 1940. During the same time, we built 3 Yorktown class carriers (before WW2) and then during the war and shortly afterward built 24 (yes, not a typo, TWENTY FOUR) Essex class ships.

OK, that’s my rant for the day.


21 posted on 01/09/2009 9:40:17 AM PST by henkster (When I was young I was told anyone could be President. Now I believe it.)
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To: henkster
OK, that’s my rant for the day.

That's no rant. That's a seminar.

23 posted on 01/09/2009 9:54:14 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: henkster

that was a good rant, thank you.

My hobby to a degree is military models, I have a nice tank collection and I’m building an early Tamiya Tiger right now, I have a very nice Gato class US sub fully built at 52” in a display case I did last winter and I have a huge Enterprise carrier kit to do eventually, myself I love tanks and subs, both are easy, I have this monster of a 18th century type of British battleship of its day, I guess it would take me a year to do that one. I would like to do battleships, big ones at least two feet long.


24 posted on 01/09/2009 9:54:32 AM PST by Eye of Unk (How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! SA)
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To: henkster; Homer_J_Simpson
Right away the Massachusetts jumped out at me in that article. I was just reading the other night about the Massachusetts supporting Patton's landings in Safi, Morocco. It was one of the 3 positions landed in Morocco in Nov 1942 during Operation Torch. Safi was used to unload tanks for the assault on Casablanca.
28 posted on 01/09/2009 10:13:51 AM PST by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: henkster
The two ocean navy bill of 1940 authorized an even larger follow-on class; the Montanas, which would displace about 56,000-60,000 tons and have 12 16” guns. No construction ever began on those monsters; by that time it was apparent that carriers were more valuable.

Not sure if you have come across references to the U.S Navy's design studies for the "Maximum Battleship" - as maximum size that could fit through the Panama Canal. Couple years back, a skillful modeler over at ModelWarships.com worked up a model based on the studies. It's not beautiful, but with fifteen 18" guns, the 80,000 ton brute would have gotten the attention of even the Yamatos.

Here's a link to the model:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/bb/bb-73/350-br/br-index.html

42 posted on 01/09/2009 11:46:59 AM PST by Captain Rhino (The best way to calm the delusions of grandeur in the energy cartel is to stop needing their energy)
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To: henkster
The Wisconsin damaged her bow in a collision in May, 1955 with the DDE-510 Eaton. The nose of the Kentucky was used to make the repair in 1956. Ohio was never started. The Illinois was scrapped in 1945 when 25 percent complete. The Kentucky was not scrapped until 1958.
The Montana class consisted of Montana, Ohio, Maine, New Hampshire and Louisiana.
44 posted on 01/09/2009 12:07:05 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: henkster
Good rant. Always loved the Iowa class, even when I spent a sleepless night in VN while the New Jersey fired over our heads. Geez those 16" shells made a noise going over.

And now I work within sight of the Missouri! It's going into drydock soon for quite a while, need to do the tour with my wife.

51 posted on 01/09/2009 2:02:57 PM PST by doorgunner69
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To: henkster
Great job on the WWI naval discussion. All I can do on threads like this is to admire and pick nits. Here is my nit: In WWI Austria-Hungary was NOT landlocked, since the port of Trieste and all of the Croatian coast (Dalmatia) was part of it's Empire. As you may remember, Baron von Trapp, sire of the musical Trapp family, was an Admiral in the old navy, and was out of a job after Austria became landlocked in the WWI peace settlement. After the anschluss with Germany the Nazis wanted him to join the German navy, which is why his family fled.
74 posted on 01/11/2009 1:49:30 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Just because I am an Oogedy-Boogedy kind of guy!)
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