Posted on 11/02/2008 1:15:52 PM PST by RangerM
We all know the potential horrors if Socialized Medicine were ever made a reality in this country, but to someone who only sees the good, and none of the bad, it is difficult for them to see the truth.
In my discussion with a liberal friend I was having difficulty describing a parallel. We all can provide stories of long wait times, and lack of care experienced in other countries, but the answer always seems to be, "America will do it better". My point is that when a person has no responsibility to bear the costs of healthcare, he will not consider costs when pursuing healthcare, and the system will ultimately either fail economically or be forced to resort to rationing.
I was trying to think of a parallel that a person could see every day, and not simply disregard.
The only thing I could think of would be the Food Stamp program. Specifically, I was trying to remember if I have EVER seen a person using Food Stamps (or the debit card that some use) AND using a coupon or other similar discount. I DO remember seeing someone using one of those store discount cards, but those don't require any real effort.
I see this as a parallel in that the person who could benefit most from using coupons fails to make an effort to do so, but I don't want to misrepresent based on my own observation.
Does the group have any insights?
The people who run the the motor vehicle department being responsible for your chemotherapy
If that doesn’t frighten you, nothing will.
Oops - sorry for the double post!
Once the posting process begins, do NOT try to stop it!!
There is a great book called “The Virtue of Selfishness” by N. Brandon or Brandan.
Each family, then, provided for their health care, and most people managed, and the cost was not five times as much as the current costs, in real dollars.
I can; and often do.
If it's voluntary it works like a charm. I can identify the ones that choose to go hungry and those that get there in spite of all their efforts and I can tell who's who.
When that choice is made for me by the welfare industry, it's legalized slavery, pure and simple. And they didn't need to send boats to pick me up and haul me to America do work and pay --- or else.
“I was trying to think of a parallel that a person could see every day, and not simply disregard.”
too many think that government paid health care will be like BC/BS with some one else paying for it. You need to remind your friend that government paid health care will come with a government budget for all services. That is the reason that long lines and waiting times exist under all forms of government paid health care. Private insurance, OTOH, has to provide the services in the contract regardless of whether they have exceeded their budget. Of course, your friend will counter that ‘American Governement Health Care’ would require the government to provide timely services. But, one cannot compell the government to do anything. The government can break any contract at will since it is Sovereign.
Right you are and the arguement is freedom of choice vs force.
One is freedon the other slavery.
In three days we will learn if our fate is slavery or freedom.
I did some reading on this bill, and it would have been mandatory for every resident, regardless of present coverage. It would have cost our state a minimum of 18.2 billion dollars a year. That represented an 80% increase to our state budget for this one bill.
According to articles in the summer of 2007, by both the Wall Street Journal, and the very left leaning Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, it would have been financed through a payroll tax, structured somewhat like Social Security/Medicare are now funded. It would have added a payroll tax of $510.00 PER WORKER!!!!!
Ask people if they can afford an extra $510.00 a month, again PER WORKER. So for my family, it would have cost us $1,020.00 in payroll taxes a month. That is something I can't afford, I know that for sure.
But of course they’ll justify it saying you’ll only pay half, and your employer will pay the other.
Never will they make the connection that it might have an (un)employment consequence.
It’s amazing how many people think that by simply leaving Iraq, that Government-run healthcare will be magically affordable.
I’m betting that McCain carries NC by at least 5%. What do you think? I think Bush carried the state by 56-44 last time. Just can’t see him flipping this state so completely.
The bible says “if a man will not work than neither shall he eat”. If this is true for food, how much more for health care?
I've been to the ER (for pneumonia) more times than I've seen my primary care physician because I'm not sick enough, according to their list of symptoms. I guess death's doorstep isn't on the list.
Govt medical care is a disgrace.
i can give you first hand and a few second hand accounts;
but before i start here is a cold fact about healthcare...people die all the time. the question is whos choice should it be, yours of a faceless govt hireling? (more on this later)
background
i live in ireland. for 4 million people we have over 100,000 working in the dept of health with a budget of 15 billion euro per year. now just do that math 15billion divided by 4 million? does that sound free?? add to that it is a complete shambles. let me repeat a complete shambles. about 2 years ago i cut a lump off my finger . i arrived in the hospital at 12.30...i saw a doctor at 6...by accident because i thought he called me( he hadnt i skipped the queue by mistake).. actually that was to join the second queue...i actually saw him at 7pm.. it was bandaged up, told me it was lost and to come back in a week...now let get really real...shall we
first hand experience
my dad
10 years ago my dad had a heart attack. they did great work saving him. one month later he had a second, they left him in a queue for 4 hours whereby he damaged his heart necessitating a triple bypass. the result, he was to go on a queue for 3-5 years taking 10 to 15 tablets a day before he would get the bypass...or we could pay with our private health insurance...did you get that?? yes we have to pay private to get seen which most working people here do. he had a triple bypass which saved his life and he is still going strong today. cost of operation was 15,000 on insurance. so basically here is the reality...go on a public queue...and die off...go private and survive
recent example 3 weeks ago
my uncle had cancer was treated for it (waited about 6 months) was cured of that and got MRSA from the hospital which is rife in public hospitals here. he died 1 week after getting mrsa. he was killed by a health care system spending 15 billion that cant keep a fricken hospital clean.
personal example number 3
our sons innoculation
a few years ago there was panic here about innoculating children with a triple shot called MMR (mumps measles and rubella). we decided for our little prince, why take the risk, lets get 3 seperate ones (it turns out it was total BS by the way). so we goto our doctor (which isnt free by the way (50 euro a visit) and ask for 3 seperate jabs and say we will pay. NO was the answer. huh i say? she says the dept of health have BANNED the 3 seperate ones, you are only allowed to get the MMR. Did you get that? the dept of health BANNED innoculation where people felt there was a risk to their child. they would rather children not be innoculated then give people the option...it was a cost reason, the MMR was cheaper. didnt matter that i wanted to pay, we would have to got a UK private doctor to get it (yes a seperate country). we took the MMR, many children didnt, which is why measles is making a comeback in ireland, something we havent seen since the 60’s. Now think about that— people who are still afraid of MMR will risk those terrible diseases for their kids. Trust me parents in ireland love their kids just as much as you love yours...sit back and imagine that decision?? you are not allowed to get a choice— the dept of health has decided..
recent examples from the uk?
what does public healthcare cover? now does it cover sex changes? Does it?? all of sudden personal choices become mandatory. personally if you want a sex change, knock yourself out, but i dont want to pay for it. that example is from the UK. some doctors were recommending it for patients who were suffering metal issues due to gender identity. it does raise this issue, what will this healthcare cover, will it cover disease a but not disease b?
all socialized medicine will have a medical board that ‘decided’ which drugs can be afforded and which cant. so a govt dept can tell you what you can get to survive. if its too expensive, pay for it yourself or die. if you think i am making this up...go check it out...i am most certainly not. in some countries people are reduced to flying to other countries to get the drugs they need.
socialized medicine doesnt work. in ireland we are trying to get large parts of it private now, but we have unions involved who dont want that to happen. the patient is the last person cared for in the irish health care system. My dad who queues once every 2 months for a blood test has his favourite line ‘the only people stressed in the irish health care system are patients’. Trust me despite what you hear, it is no better in large parts of europe. where it is better (or at least told it is better), the costs are staggering and in some cases is leading to huge holes in budgets filled with borrowing. My better half is swedish and you cannot go private in sweden...trust me if you could there would be a flood of people and the tax rates are huge to pay for it. also the harsh reality is they are failing. it is failing in germany, failing in sweden and failing in france...thats the other fact you dont hear.
the harsh cold reality of healthcare is that it is and should be a personal choice. i dont want a govt minister telling me what i can or cant have to survive. the sirens song of free health for all is an illusion that can never be filled. the cold terrible reality is people die all the time...we are human. quite frankly the closest i came to punching someone was when my dad was in hospital and the way some doctors treated him. there are great people in healthcare here, truly great surgeons, great nurses, great doctors...its just a screwed up system..
anyone who you talk to who thinks it will work is falling for fools gold.
the only way obama is going to get it off the ground is to tax each and every one of ye up the yangers and gut other parts of taxable income as well. trust me you might think you are paying taxes...you have no freacken idea....prepare thyself for a bottomless pit of money run by people who care nothing for your money who will hire other bottomless pitters to fill it...
anyone of your friends that thinks this is a good idea, send them to me for a slap on the face with the cold wet fish of reality...
one final point...where do all the best drugs come from?? ah yes, the US...no drug company is going to deal with a public health system that is going to limit what it will earn to develop drugs. Why would they do that? why cure xyz disease if you can never earn money from it? the dark little secret of socialised healthcare is it sucks and lives because the US doesnt have it. if you do — what we have now drugs wise is as about as good as it will get...
you wont read that last bit in any red tinged obama handout...
there is one way to stop that insanity however...just vote mcpalin...
It’s hard to say.
I keep hearing about Wake County (where Raleigh is) demographics. The only flaw in this ointment is whether or not the transplants have been “Southernized” or if they have retained their Blue-State mentality.
Democrats outnumber Republicans in this State, however many of the Eastern NC natives are the Zell Miller type of democrat.
Blacks make up 21% of the population in NC, and if you assume that they all will vote for BO, then McCain is already starting at a disadvantage.
It will be very close regardless of direction, but I think McCain will ultimately carry NC.
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