Vanity. Were/Are "Nazis" Left-wing or Right-wing?

[Coyoteman]

Uh, thanks, but now I’m even more confused?

Read the article to which I linked.

The essence is that the problem involves more than one variable. One variable will get you left and right, for example, with varying degrees in between.

The whole left-right model came out of France a couple of hundred years ago, and has little applicability today.

Pournelle changed that variable, and added a second. His model contrasts the two variables of rationality vs. trust in the state. This two-dimensional model gives a significantly larger universe within which to array the various factions.

[ken21]

that’s a leftist sham to call the nazi’s “right wing.”

national socialism IS a socialism.

so, nazism and communism both are of socialism.

[PinkChampagneonIce]

Thanks Coyoteman and all. I am sincerely indebted to you for references that I will read re: the actual nature of Nazism/Fascism. But what I am really interested in understanding it why the POPULAR PERCEPTION is that Nazis (who apparently considered themselves socialists) are almost uniformly labeled “right-wing” by those in the United States. Were liberals that effective in changing the labels? What is it that makes people associates “Socialists” with the “right wing?”

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

The only important difference between Nazi-ism, Fascism, Communism, Socialism and Liberalism is the spelling, and that the last group hasn’t got the brains to figure it out.
- Bill Vance

[aruanan]

If you believe the state should define the purpose of life and control the means by which that purpose is achieved, then you’re a totalitarian. If you believe it will happen all on its own as history inevitably works it out, then you’re a leftist. If you believe the state, led by a vanguard working on behalf of history or a new economic order or a new race of human beings, has to be the training wheels for the New Man, then you’re a fascist. If you want to control the state to enrich yourself and the members of your party, then you’re just a run of the mill mafia type who has found a better way to turn a buck than prostitution, loan sharking, gambling, unions, or drugs.

[Greg F]

Fascism was such a short lived phenomena that it never really developed many theoretical works explaining itself. There was a fascist economics that took form and that theorists tried to develop called corporatism, but it’s fuzzy, undeveloped. I personally think fascism is the more robust system compared to communism. It does not destroy the entire market, but allows a market to function within a totalitarian state. The market functions without absolute property rights though, since the state is all powerful.

[george76]

Nazis are leftist socialists

[Vigilanteman]

Excellent points, weegee. Another worthwhile exercise is to read the MSM of the 1930's. Hitler was a sharp dresser, had impeccable manners and was a real lady's man. He had transformed the country from the ashes of World War I into one of the most up and coming economic powers in the world whereas the victors of that war had soup lines, 30% unemployment and dysfunctional services. All this praise heaped on Hitler is enough to make you vomit until he turned on the other MSM idol, Josef Stalin.

To be fair, some of them began to withdraw their praise after the Crystal Night officially sanctioned persecution of the Jews; a few more after he invaded Poland. But for most of them, attacking Stalin was the last straw.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

“were”.

There are no more Nazis. They’re extinct.

You can still see them regularly however in movies. And in more movies. And in more movies. To watch movies, you would think there are millions and millions of Nazis. Everywhere.

That is not correct. Nazis are extinct.

[PinkChampagneonIce]

Thank you, Aruanan! I see what you’re saying about totalitarianism. Based on what you’re saying, it’s obvious the Nazis under Hitler saw themselves as a state based on a new race of human beings and a new world order. Did THEY consider themselves socialists, perhaps a vanguard to distribute the goods to those who fit the Master Race criteria? This would fit in with the current socialist view that the government should distribute the goodies, but that they should go to those with “correct thinking.”

[oyez]

Simple observation. Fascists tend to look to and glorify an individual like “der Führer”. Communism tends look to and glorify the party.

[Onelifetogive]

Nazi - National Socialists.

National - They love their country.
Socialists - They love your money.

So, they are like Conservatives and Liberals...

[PinkChampagneonIce]

OK. Perhaps the current perception of Nazis or neo-Nazis as “right wing” is due to the perception that they follow “a” leader (or perhaps a very well-defined goal) rather than a collectivist leader (a party) with a more diffused agenda?

[The_Reader_David]

The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ were defined by the left. Anything that opposed International Communism, be it free-market classical liberalism, Throne-and-Altar European conservatism, or Naziism or fascism (actually distinct phenomena) was defined to be ‘right wing’.

The same trick is used now-days by the American left: paleoconservatives, neoconservatives, libertarians (as long as they talk about economics often enough), nativists, and actual racists of the KKK or neo-Nazi varieties are all called ‘right wing’.

The terms left and right have no useful meaning, unless you happen to be a leftist, in which case you use them to feel good about your own idiocies by imagining that Russell Kirk and David Duke, Edmund Burke and Adolph Hitler are all cut from the same ‘right wing’ cloth.

[Tangaray]

Keep one thing in mind: The Germans were then, and sill are ardent Nationalist first, as are all the other Europeans in their small countries. Germans have been socialistic (not communistic) since Bismarck introduced state pensions in the 1870’s. They respect a strong government and like to subordinate themselves to anyone who exudes authority. Only about 20% of all Germans are home owners, the rest are renters. I’ve seen the title “Home Owner” on a grave stone in one of their beautiful cemeteries. Their nationalism stems back to the 1800’s, and grew as Germany became united under Bismarck’s leadership in 1871. They espoused an arrogant racial superiority as Aryans, but Aryans were not considered only Germans, but all Nordic people, like Scandinavians and Dutch too. Germans won’t give up their socialism, even today. But it is not close to Communism, as there were many street battles in Germany before Hitler, between Communists and Nazi Socialists. On the economic scale, those two concepts are usually grouped close together, but there is a world of difference. What are usually described as “liberals” in our country, are actually socialists, but they are afraid of that word. They want more government control of your life, “to help the down trodden”. Income redistribution. We should call them by their real name.

[Coyoteman]

The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ were defined by the left. Anything that opposed International Communism, be it free-market classical liberalism, Throne-and-Altar European conservatism, or Naziism or fascism (actually distinct phenomena) was defined to be ‘right wing’.

Wrong. See this article.

[Sherman Logan]

If you believe or a new race of human beings, has to be the training wheels for the New Man, then you’re a fascist.

Except that Leninism/Stalinism very specifically preached that "the state, led by a vanguard working on behalf of history or a new economic order" would bring about the millenium. They even drifted over at times into the theory that a "new Soviet man" would emerge, which bears considerable resemblance to the Nazi ideas of the "master race."

As I've pointed out on similar threads, discussions about whether Fascism/Nazism are "socialist" are meaningless until you first define what sets socialism apart from other ideologies. My experience has been that very few people are interested in tackling this challenge. Most would rather just pronounce that of course Nazis were socialists without first defining what the hell a socialist is.

[PinkChampagneonIce]

Thank you. The_Reader_David. This seems to be a very good explanation of what to a logical mind appears impossible! It truly does seem that “right-wing” has become a label applied to anything that isn’t “left-wing,” which means there are a whole lot of very odd bed-fellows!

[The_Reader_David]

You cite an article of disputed neutrality from Wikipedia, which has been vetted as having a leftist bias?

Gee, I guess my position has been devastated.

Sure, there’s a pre-history back to the French Revolution and the seating in the Assembly, but the usage since about 1920 is exactly as I described it.

[ClearCase_guy]

But what I am really interested in understanding it why the POPULAR PERCEPTION is that Nazis (who apparently considered themselves socialists) are almost uniformly labeled “right-wing” by those in the United States.

This may sound cynical, but I believe this is the simple truth:

As others have pointed out, socialists in the US thought that the Nazis were swell while Hitler had a non-aggression pact with Stalin. There were differences, but both were socialists. Then Hitler attacked Uncle Joe. So now the socialists in the West had to identify the National Socialists as being "on the other side", and so the Nazis were suddenly branded "right-wing socialists", which in my opinion, is a terribly stupid phrase. But it was adopted, and the Nazis designated as right-wing lunatics, just because they had to be portrayed as enemies of the Soviet Union's Bolshevik Revolution.

Also, as some have said, the old Left/Right terminology from the French Revolution is a rather bad fit nowadays. IMO, the most binary breakdown is: Collectivist vs Individualist. The Nazis, the Fascists, the Socialists, and the Communists are all Collectivists. America is Individualist (but the Dems are working hard).