Jews ponder Moses [ Encyclopaedia Judaica ]

North County Times ^ | Thursday, December 14, 2006 | Richard Ostling

[SunkenCiv]

Rabbi S. David Sperling, isn't certain that Moses even existed or, if he did, whether the Bible provides much reliable information about him. Sperling contends that if traditional accounts of the origins of Judaism had not recorded a founder, "analogy would have required postulating him; and that is probably what happened" when ancients wrote the Bible... The introduction to Moses' life from another writer says "we cannot really reconstruct a biography of Moses. We cannot even be sure that Moses was a historical character." ...Conservative Judaism's official Torah commentary (2001) states that what should concern Jews is "not when, or even if, Moses lived, but what his life conveys in Israel's saga." It calls Moses a "folkloristic, national hero." This fading Moses, of course, departs radically from long-standing tradition. The "13 Principles" of the revered 12th-century sage Maimonides, for example, insisted that Moses lived as Judaism's supreme prophet through whom God gave the Torah. And the Book of Exodus, of course, recounts Moses' career in considerable detail... Orthodox Rabbi Shalom Carmy of New York's Yeshiva University... observes that liberals hold the biblical text "doubted until independently proven true," while for fellow traditionalists "it is true unless conclusively disproved."

[Drammach]

I read before that 40 is a miss translation and that it really means 'many'.

The Hebrew in the relevant passages (Exodus 16:35 and Numbers 14:34) is the number for 40, "arbahim" ("forty - arba׳eem - 40

The Children of "Arbahim" ???

[Drammach]

Oops.. forgot to add your name..
Seem my # 21...

[Fedora]

It's from a root word for "four", combined with a word from the root for "multiply" or "multiples", so together the root words mean something like "multiples of four" or "many fours". I suppose that could be partly where the "many" interpretation comes from, though like I said the word as a whole normally means "40" and the "many" functions in that context. As far as I know the "four" part of the word doesn't have any relation to the word at the beginning of "Abraham", which means "father"; but the suffix in Abraham sounds similar to the word for "multiple"/"many", which might be what you're noticing: Abraham can be translated "father of many".

[Fedora]

You're welcome--my pleasure, Fred.

[FateAmenableToChange]

Guess I can save myself $1995 + tax, shipping, and handling.

I'm sure this would qualify for Amazon Super Saver shipping. Order today and it might be at your house in time for Christmas. < /irony >

[protest1]

Of course Moses existed and wrote the first five books of the Bible.

Here are two link defending scripture.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/moses.asp

http://www.carm.org/bible/jedp_b.htm

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[Citizen Tom Paine]

Any Bible believing Christian has to believe in the Old Testament. It is directly quote at least 250 in the New Testament. Allusions and verbal parallels are quoted at least 2,100 times in the New Testament. There are at least 135 allusions and verbal parallels to the Apocrypha in the New Testament.

[Basheva]

The Israelites did not wander the desert/wilderness because they were lost (hence no need for a map). It was not a mindless wandering.

It was punishment for the cowardly and unduly pessimistic report of the scouts sent out by Moses to see what the Promised Land held. When all but two of the scouts purposely magnified the difficulties of the task, and the rest of the people took up the cry to return to Egypt, G-D said they were not ready to enter the Promised Land.

Therefore, 40 years of wandering was necessary so that the generation of the Exodus would die off and a new generation would enter the Promised Land. Only two of the old generation were allowed to enter: the two scouts who gave a truer report - Joshua and Caleb.

[gleeaikin]

I too believe that the area of wandering was much larger. I was interested to see your reference to the disasters of the mid-fifteenth century, as I have been looking for just such a disaster. One possibility is a major pyroclastic explosion of Mt. Etna which is listed as 1500 BC + - 50 years. I wish I could get a more accurate date on that. Any info you have would be greatly appreciated.

I have also developed a rather detailed scenario about the political connection in Egypt involving that time period which I may some day develop into a historical novel.

I think the people who say the reign of Ramases was the time of the Exodus are wrong. I am not aware of any major disasters in his reign, and I think he was so strong he would have just crushed a slave revolt. It makes more sense that the problem arose shortly after Egyptians regained power after the Hyksos period of invasion and conquest.

[gleeaikin]

I have a friend who has done research on numbers and the Bible. He and some others believe that much having to do with numbers was actually secret code, used to communicate during the oppression by the Romans.

[Fedora]

I think there are some codes in the Book of Revelation. The verses cited above mentioning the Israelites' 40-year wandering are older than the Roman period, though.

[Fred Nerks]

It makes more sense that the problem arose shortly after Egyptians regained power after the Hyksos period of invasion and conquest...

------

http://www.varchive.org/ce/theses.htm

16. The Israelites met the Hyksos (Amu) on their way from Egypt. The Hyksos were the Amalekites.



You may find this information of interest:

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/exodus.html

http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/JNHDA/wic.htm

[ApplegateRanch]

I'm sure this would qualify for Amazon Super Saver shipping. Order today and it might be at your house in time for Christmas.

That's a few hundred more than I paid Amazon for my new Troy tiller, including shipping; and that keeps me deep enough in steer manure.

[night reader]

I think the people who say the reign of Ramases was the time of the Exodus are wrong. I am not aware of any major disasters in his reign, and I think he was so strong he would have just crushed a slave revolt. It makes more sense that the problem arose shortly after Egyptians regained power after the Hyksos period of invasion and conquest.

You are absolutely correct. Ramses lived long and prospered. He died of old age, and was buried with honors. When we look for the Pharaoh of the Exodus, we should look for one whose reign was short(?), who suffered devastating economic setbacks, and of whom his successors would have tried to remove all memory. We should not try to find his mummy for he was swallowed up in the sea. The devastation was so complete we might actually look at the ending of an age, perhaps the last pharaoh of the Old Kingdom.

[wildbill]

All together indicates that the Israelites under Moses did not spend forty years in the small triangular Sinai Peninsula, but in the western regions of Arabia.

If you assume that the actual events (wandering around in the desert for forty years)are true, you'd have to have (or dream up)a religious reason for being so meshugginah(sp?)for so long.

I mean, Dude, why not lead your chosen people down that camel trail to see where all those great trade goods and foodstuffs come from? Gotta be better than this

---

desert.

[JewishRighter]

"Rabbi S. David Sperling, isn't certain that Moses even existed or,"

I'm not sure "rabbi" Sperling even exists, either.

[JewishRighter]

According to the Torah, Moses' name (in the original Hebrew) was Moshe, with the Mo pronounced like Moe and she pronounced as in Sheffield. The Torah says that Pharoah's daughter, Basya, gave him that name "because I drew him from the water" an allusion to finding him in his little ark-like basket on the Nile. In Hebrew she says "Ki min hamayim mishiseehu". The word mishiseehu has the root word mishi, which is conjugated to the name Moshe.

So while your observations about the similarity of the Pharoah's names is very interesting, it doesn't match the Torah source. Good post just the same.

[tarheelswamprat]

So while your observations about the similarity of the Pharoah's names is very interesting, it doesn't match the Torah source. Good post just the same.

I appreciate your kindness, and your taking the time to respond to such an old thread. However, I don't understand your statement above, since the Torah reference you yourself gave quite literally confirms my assertion that the name was of Egyptian derivation, with the clear connotation of being "of the Nile" or "coming from the Nile". There is no contradiction. The Egyptian term, and its symbolic connotation, predates the Torah, and it is entirely reasonable that Hebrews who spent four-hundred years in Egypt would be influenced by the language and traditions.

[SteveH]

(For something I am looking into) Where can one find out more about writings concerning the "gate of wisdom" or the 49 (or 50) "gates of wisdom"? (Especially in Greek, even if only a translation)?

[IncredibleHulk]

40 is a correct translation of a symbolic number. Since they had no punctuation, they used literary devices to show importance or exclamation, etc. Forty means many 4's but doesn't describe an actual time period as much as it describes the extreme hardship of living in the desert for the lapsed time they actually stayed there.