Posted on 07/27/2005 4:03:11 PM PDT by SmithL
HAYWARD, Calif. - A defendant in the case of three men charged with murdering a transgender teenager broke down in tears Wednesday when a prosecutor asked him point-blank if one of his friends had acknowledged strangling Gwen Araujo.
"Why don't you tell the truth," prosecutor Chris Lamiero asked defendant Jose Merel as he pressed him on whether co-defendant Michael Magidson had said he strangled the teenager, known to the men as "Lida."
"I want you to tell me, tell the jurors - did Mike tell you how Lida died?" Lamiero said as Merel hung his head, eyes averted from Magidson sitting just feet away at the defense table.
"I can't answer that," Merel said, wiping away tears.
"Jose, Mike told you that he strangled Lida with the rope in the garage, didn't he?" Lamiero insisted.
After Merel repeatedly refused to answer, Alameda County Superior Court Judge Harry Sheppard adjourned the case for lunch, telling deputies to keep Merel and Magidson apart.
After the break, Merel answered the question calmly, saying Magidson had said that "if push came to shove" Merel should tell the police that Magidson had strangled Araujo.
"You took it to mean he had done it, correct?" Lamiero said.
"Yes," Merel said.
Previous testimony has been sketchy on how the 17-year-old Araujo died.
Merel, Magidson and a third man, Jason Cazares, all 25, are charged with first-degree murder in the death of Araujo, which prosecutors say happened after the teenager's biological identity was revealed in a showdown at Merel's house in Newark, a San Francisco suburb.
The case was charged as a hate-crime.
A previous trial ended with a hung jury after a defense attorney argued the killing was manslaughter committed in a passion provoked by sexual deception, an argument that angered Araujo's family and transgender advocates.
The defendants met Araujo in late summer of 2002. According to earlier testimony, suspicions about her gender arose after Merel and Magidson, who both had sexual encounters with the teenager, compared notes.
In October 2002, the debate was settled when a woman at the house grabbed Araujo's genitals, witnesses have testified.
Jaron Nabors, who also was at the house that night, testified at both trials that Merel hit Araujo with a can and a frying pan. Nabors said he saw Magidson begin to pull a rope toward the teenager's neck but did not see the strangulation, although he said he later heard Magidson tacitly admit to it.
The 22-year-old Nabors, who led police to Araujo's body buried in a shallow grave in the Sierra foothills, initially was charged with murder but was allowed to plead to manslaughter in exchange for testifying.
The defense attacked Nabors' credibility, noting he has lied to police in the past.
Although they agree Nabors is lying, defense attorneys have taken different approaches in their cases.
In opening statements, Magidson's attorney said the case was a crime of passion and is not murder. Cazares' attorney said his client wasn't involved in the murder and only helped bury the body out of loyalty to his friends.
Merel's attorney said his client struck Araujo only a glancing blow with the frying pan and did not seriously injure the teenager, saying Merel genuinely cared for Araujo.
Merel, who did not testify at the first trial, has told jurors in the second trial he was distraught when he found out that Araujo was biologically male.
In cross-examination Wednesday, Lamiero took Merel through the emotions of the night.
"You were hurt. You were crying that night, correct?" Lamiero said.
"Yes."
"You vomited that night?"
"Yes."
Still, said Lamiero, "You knew that the better course of action was to get her out of that house, correct?
"I wanted her out," Merel said.
"You knew that was the right thing to do?"
"Yes," said Merel.
Fine. My below statements go back to the original subject on transsexuals. Please read my statements below and think on them before you reply.
But to say that a person can choose their gender is factually WRONG.
That's the first problem. Medical evidence disagrees with you.
Your belief that transsexuals are taught to be transsexuals is basically a twisted view of theory by John Money that gender is taught. This theory has been debunked and has been proven false, go read the book, "As Nature Made Him".
There are other ways medical studies of the brain and body have proven that gender is inborn.
For example 'trail and error'. You name, it has been tried before; from lobotomization, shock therapy, counseling, etc... These can cause repression (which leads to my serious mental and physical problems like depression, stress to the point of having a heart attack or stroke), but it will not 'cure' it, it will only make things worse.
If you read the accounts of transsexuals, most of them (90%) state that they felt their bodies were the wrong gender when they were 4 to 6 years old. That's years before puberty and sexual desire come into the equation.
Also, just because you cannot see it outwardly does not mean it is not true.
And studies using C.A.T. scans, P.E.T. scans and post-mortem studies on the BTSc region of the brains of transsexuals leads SOME evidence that supports that gender identity problems are inborn.
Now the stance on the Medical Community on allowing transsexuals live their life in the gender of their choosing is NOT based on the hippy motto "If it feels good, do it". Hippies believe that people have the right to be lazy and LESS productive in life.
One the reasons, the medical community has taken the stance it has on transsexuals is because their stance has proven that transsexuals being allowed to live in the gender of they choosing, they will become MORE PRODUCTIVE in both their own lifes and those around them. Which is a benefit to not to only themselves, but society as a whole.
Finally, don't go to someone searching for answers, search for those answers yourself. You have access to the internet and search engines, use them...
From your last comment, I think I know where you and I went wrong. You are one of those new age thinkers that thinks that sex and gender are two separate things. Well, the male sex is defined by the XY chromosome, the female sex is defined by the XX chromosome. These things cannot be changed ever.
Therefore, a man is man, once and for all. Regardless of what he may tell himself he is, or how he came to that point. He can identify himself as being of the opposite sex, which you call gender, but he can physically NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be a member of the opposite sex. Ever.
In conclusion, there are two types of (male) homosexuals. Those that accept the fact that they are perverts, and those that tell themselves that they are "a woman trapped inside a man's body" to excuse behavior that they inherently know is wrong. And that is why you still haven't answered my question of what you are, because deep down you know it is wrong to be homosexual. Why else would you be embarrassed about it?
I'm not the one searching for answers, my friend. I think you are, and you don't like my answers. Hey, we're all sinners. We don't do lobotomies, shock treatment, counseling, etc. either to 'cure' us. It's a lifelong struggle to fight sin. But you've got to admit you have a problem before you can better yourself.
Keep in mind what I am stating below is basic science.
You believe the XY and XX chromosome pairs are the final word on gender. This is where you are incorrect.
XY and XX chromosome pairs are the first step in the developement of gender. XY and XX chromosome pairs are the blueprints.
And like when things are built, the blueprints and the various steps in the blueprints are not always followed correctly. In truth, the actual building blocks of gender developement in the womb is RNA (not DNA) and the introduction (or lack of introduction) of hormones at key points in the various stages of developement of a baby.
When you begin to understand this, you will see how your belief on gender is flawed.
Ok. I better understand what you're saying, and agree with it. But the fact that gender development in the womb can be hampered by hormones does not make one's gender. If it did, then you could theoretically have a person with XY configuration who, pumped with enough hormones, could bear a child. But this has never happened, nor will it. Because the features can be changed, but not the basic code. If one was meant to be a man, why not try and help him become one?
It reminds me of people whose kids are born deaf, and they refuse to give them cochlear implants because that's "who they are." But humans weren't meant to be deaf. And men weren't meant to be women. And vice-versa.
You apprently won't answer whether you are a hermaphrodite or not. But the man in this article was not. So unless you are, I don't see the point in introducng their evidence into this disussion.
Actually I was about the gender developement of a baby during the baby's time in the womb.
But this has never happened, nor will it.
Given the advances in tissue engineering and organ growing. I would not say 'never'. I would say 20 years or sooner.
Because the features can be changed, but not the basic code.
And what code are you talking about, I was pointing out that RNA and hormones play a direct part in gender developement.
If one was meant to be a man, why not try and help him become one?
I point out in a previous post that this has been tried before (shock therapy etc) and does not work. To being with, they not men up stairs in their minds.
It reminds me of people whose kids are born deaf, and they refuse to give them cochlear implants because that's "who they are." But humans weren't meant to be deaf. And men weren't meant to be women. And vice-versa.
Actually, I find the position to be more like "God made you deaf, therefore you should force to remain deaf".
Also, keep in mind medical justification on the issue of transsexuals is that they should be allowed to live the gender they want because by doing so they are happier and more productive. Which from a practical standpoint is better for society because they are more productive and have a more positive view in life.
You apprently won't answer whether you are a hermaphrodite or not.
Hermaphrodite is only one in a billion people. The term you are looking for is 'intersex', which I am not, as far as I know.
You make some good points. But all this began when I suggested that this could've been avoided if there were laws against impersonating someone of the opposite sex for the purposes of seducing someone. Whether one agress or not, I am offering a suggestion to prevent this from happening again.
Seems everyone else finds it offensive/ridiculous to make such a law.
But what is their suggestion? Do nothing!
But this will only result in more of the same, and these types of incidents will continue to happen.
But that's playing mad scientist, not offering someone treatment. One day we may be able to make halfman/halfanimal creatures like in the Island of Dr. Moreau, but that don't make it a good idea!
To being with, they not men up stairs in their minds.
Exaclty my point. This is where they need help, because they are wrong! They are men. When someone is wrong, you help them get it right. You don't change reality to accomodate their incorrect views so they feel better. That's liberalism.
Actually, I find the position to be more like "God made you deaf, therefore you should force to remain deaf".
Is that your position?
Which from a practical standpoint is better for society because they are more productive and have a more positive view in life.
I don't care what is more "practical" for society. I care about the victims, not about exploiting them. Some might find people dying of AIDS practical because it controls the world population. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Encouraging people to go through life misguided isn't practical. It is sad.
Hermaphrodite is only one in a billion people. The term you are looking for is 'intersex', which I am not, as far as I know.
I didn't think you were. Sounds like you're just a normal guy/girl looking for an excuse to be something you're not.
It all depends on how such science is used. A mad scientist is someone who doesn't care that their research hurts people, they only care for the results and discoveries of their work. Which is not the case here.
One day we may be able to make halfman/halfanimal creatures like in the Island of Dr. Moreau, but that don't make it a good idea!
Actually some researchers are working on that right now. Personally, I don't like the idea.
Exaclty my point. This is where they need help, because they are wrong! They are men.
You are suggesting changing someone's personality to fit the way you view it should be. That is enslavement of the mind and against personal freedom. By the way, the brain starts developing before the genitalia in the womb. As such it is eithical to make the body fit the mind as long as the alteration increases the 'quality of life' for that person.
I don't care what is more "practical" for society. I care about the victims, not about exploiting them.
Same here, but I realize that your suggestions would create victims and hurt people.
Some might find people dying of AIDS practical because it controls the world population.
On only a idiot would think so because that is a disease that creates a drain on resources as it spreads; either from carelessness or rape.
But that doesn't make it a good thing.
No it is not.
Encouraging people to go through life misguided isn't practical.
Disreguarding the personal accounts of others and the logic and science that has validate those accounts is misguided.
It is sad.
No, it is tragic.
I didn't think you were. Sounds like you're just a normal guy/girl looking for an excuse to be something you're not.
No, I just find this stuff interesting.
The person probably deserved a punch to the jaw, but not to be tortured and killed like that.
Homosexual Agenda Ping.
More on the miserable life and death of the confused, miserable (and now, really miserable) cross dressing homosexual teenage boy who was murdered by the sick fools who had "sex" with him, thinking he was a girl.
The whole story is so pathetic, so degrading, that it is difficult to read about it. But this kind of crime and suffering will become more and more common, if "gender" is taken to mean "whatever the heck you want it to be at the moment".
Interesting though heated discussion down the thread. One of the discussers is seriously wrong....
Freepmail me if you want on/off this pinglist.
Note: Objective reality exists. What the mind imagines isn't necessarily so - in fact, often isn't. What God thinks, is reality. What we think, isn't - unless it agree with His reality. Too bad more people aren't taught this.
You're not really serious are you? A LAW? how about getting to know someone before you have sex with them? Since I'm not a guy I don't know this for sure, but it would SEEM (man, no matter how I phrase this it's coarse) but wouldn't he know where he was putting himself? This is one of those things that everyone should have done thehonor thing and NEVER spoken of it again. Not killing someone over it.
This whole case is beyond sick. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind--in the case of both the deceased and the killers. There are no admirable people in this sorry spectacle.
BINGO!
What happened to him? He got lied to and wound up having sex (with a freak) but having sex none the less. Then he kills the freak when he finds out it is a guy. KILLS HIM. I agree that perhaps a butt kicking was in order (even that may be stretching it) but murder? Methinks the punishment does not quite fit the crime.
"if he had taken matters into his own hands he would have realized the deception"
No kidding, foreplay isn't just for her, these days it would have prolly kept these kids out of prison.
I'd say that's an accurate assesment of the situation. I read this story last night and couldn't stop thinking about the lives everyone involved must live, and that was a great reminder of how far our culture has fallen.
It's really sad that many today have no interest in Christianity... None of this would have happened if the folks in this story were following the teachings of Jesus.
" . . . if there were laws against impersonating someone of the opposite sex for the purposes of seducing someone."
Jewish (Torah) law prohibits wearing the clothing of the opposite sex. The reason may partly derive from the need for boundaries, which reinforces proper conduct. Probably the following perverted behavior might have been avoided.
I don't know if cross-dressing is considered a capital offense. IMHO murder may not have been appropriate here. Nevertheless, I have no sympathy for the victim. What he did was wrong, also.
Don't butt into conversations you only skim through.
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