Posted on 06/24/2005 7:13:06 AM PDT by hispanichoosier
I need help with LOTR. Two friends and I were discussing the books and movies last weekend. Friend 1 observed that the relationship between Frodo and Sam (in the movies) had homosexual overtones. Friend 2 retorted that the relationship is based on the master/servant relationship of old England and that Friend 1 was looking at it through American eyes, where rugged individualism is more prized. I--caught in the middle--had to admit that I thought that Sean Astin overplayed Sam at times but was great overall.
So, was Friend 1 right about the gay overtones, or was Friend 2's explanation correct? I'm rather at a loss over the whole debacle.
Yeah, his lovely wife is a particularly beautiful transvestite!
Friend 1 clearly has issues. Tolkien was a devout Catholic writing what he felt to be an archetypal human story in the context of Germanic folklore. It ain't about a homosexual relationship.
You're right - thanks. Tolkien lost most of his close friends in the war(s) and I think there are many tributes to them in his works.
Rosie Cotton was a cute Hobbit transvestite, don't you know?
Their relatiuonship is actually based on British Officers and their "Bat-Men" during WWI. Tolkien who had served in the war had seen this first hand. If you watch the special features disc one on the extended version of "Return of the King" the very first documentary explains quite well. At least I think it's "Return of the King".
There is no gay overtones, if there are any, it is only the figment of people's twisted imagination. Tolkien's prose was very British, and they talked to each other this way. Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens, who adapted the novels into the screenplay, though wanting to capture Tolkiens prose, were also very aware of the way audience may interpret it. For the movies, they actually toned it down quite a bit.
Part of what is wonderful about the story is how the servant was absolutely necessary in order for the Ring to be destroyed, and (in the book anyway) for the Shire to be regrown. There can be no doubt that Christian notions such as "the first will be last and the last will be first" are embodied in Sam.
Having survived through
nine billion threads about it,
I have no desire
to stir up this pot
and relive the debacle.
Search out the old threads!
HUMMMM, your friends seem to see the world as either homosexual or straight. Maybe they should EXPAND their thinking a little.
Friend 2 is correct. The book is actually more cringe-inducing than the movie in its portrayal of the Frodo/Sam relationship, in American (or at least my)eyes. The whole "dear master" thing gets hard to take at times. But there is absolutely nothing homo-erotic about it.
The other two hobbits also do not treat Sam as an equal in the first part of the book. They talk over and around him without batting an eye.
It is relevant that Frodo, Merry and Pippin are all from the very top rung of hobbit society.
OTOH, by the end of the book it is obvious that Sam and Frodo have transcended their master-servant relationship and that Sam is fully accepted as an equal by all three hobbits. In the prologue we find that Sam and his family, as a result of his deeds, have themselves become hobbit aristocracy.
It's a sad commentary that our culture has become so feminized that an example of strong male friendship has come to be suspected of being a homosexual relationship.
Even Bert and Ernie aren't exempt! LOL!
In the book, there is a strong development of a father-son relationship, but that was distorted, even reversed, in the films because of the director's decision to depict Frodo as a youth. (Don't get me started.)
Why don't you quit trolling on posts that are clearly labeled "vanity?"
"Why do all friendly male relationships have to be about homosexuality?"
It's generally only repressed homos themselves who have this opinion. I'd say that's probably the case here as well.
You kind of ignore Rosie.
It might be helpful if you read Shippey's biography of JRRT, or some other biographies. Most of JRRT's chums died in the muck of trenches in WWI Europe. It was a miracle that JRRT survived it--but he did, just barely. I imagine the memory of clinging to dying comrades figures greatly in LOTR.
It says something sad about our modern culture--that it is so sex-crazed and effete-- that so many have sought to impose this interp upon Frodo and Sam.
I think Friend 1 is probably a closet gay. They are always looking for stuff like this to validate their lifestyle.
Gesundheit!
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