Posted on 10/02/2004 3:48:27 PM PDT by Quix
QX NOTE: Since mentioning the below in a very sparse thread, a well known FREEPER has reported a similar dream. Another FREEPER, who probably knows more than many of the rest of us put togehter, said it was . . . my words . . . compatible with other . . . data.
If you FREEPMAIL them, please let me know if I can post them anonymously on this thread. Blessings, QX
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The AP List
October 2, 2004
Meri Burlingame: Moderator
Even as many had dreams indicating in July and August that September would be a month of storms, others have had dreams saying that October would be a month of terrorism. May we be found standing in the breach as the Lord would direct us.
Meri
[QX NOTE: Meri is a long term, close friend and Sister in The Lord].
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Tracey DesLauriers
September 4. 2004 5:03am.........had this dream three times...
I am standing outside, and approximately about 20 feet away from me, I see what looks like a big globe of the world.
As I begin to walk towards it, I am then lifted up far above this globe, and can now look down , and see the whole universe.
As I look far over towards the left, I see a darkening in the sky. In a blink of an eye, it strikes me that it has the resemblance of New York…the stock exchange buildings and business area. I then become aware, that as this situation is occurring, that in other parts of the world, there seem to be simultaneous attacks.
Although, I am not certain, of the exact places these attacks are also occurring, I do notice, that oil refineries, are being blown up, and I notice there seems to be those of Arabic descent as well as what appears to be Iraq, is now once again, under heavy attack, with air attacks, and ground forces, attacking just as they did in the beginning of the war…many lives are lost.
As this takes place, I look to my right, and see more destruction, and terror and death.
As I awoke, I was in tears, and kept hearing "Oct will be a significant month, Winds Of Change…Watch and Pray"
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Meri Burlingame
AP List Moderator
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WELL PUT, DAVEY,
If this post is an example of your "experience" with "God", I will take my good Book and lay besides still waters thank you.
Harley out...
That's probably the best anyone could do, Harley,
bow out, when there
is NO
remotely hefty, quality intellectual,
response available, possible.
I do HOPE,
Harley,
that I DID make my points vividly clear enough
to be at least minimally understood???
BTW, Harley,
the post before that--the long one--with all the refs . . . quite a rather tedioiusly calm intellectual presentation of both sides, it seemed to me . . .
you had no comment on that one either!?
I guess when the rubber meets the road, you Calivinist Cessationists . . . just kind of . . .
wellllll, wimp out, it seems.
Throw a few rocks; hijack a thread and then . . .
maybe hit a little more
and run.
Interesting theology, that.
I am not the one who shared a "dream" with you by Freepmail, but I do have them. I call them “night travels”. They begin when I am in very deep worship, usually contemplating the Person of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are characterized by being lifted up in unspeakable joy. There is always music but never conversation. I’ve traveled backwards and forwards in what we consider to be “time” and have visited other “places”.
Amazingly, there is no sense of time passing, distance or proportion. At once I can be inside a blooming iris and in another, could pick up a galaxy like it were a hair pin.
I’ve seen people who have passed from this world, but they are always whole, youthful, weightless and joyful. Strangely, I know who they are yet their features are meaningless. Their “bodies” seem transparent and yet not. Some have traveled with me. In many of the night travels, I sense an overwhelming Light and holiness when we gather. There are no dark forebodings, fear, anxiety, etc.
Prophecy exists in two forms – foresight and insight. In either sense, it is a gift of the Spirit – not something we can do on our own.
I do not have the foresight gift (or curse as it may seem to some who have it). In my night travels, the end is always God’s perfect will, His person and it is glorious!
Regarding the insight gift, the night travels have given me a greater understanding of priorities and the substance of “all that there is”. In priorities, that His will and purpose is all that is truly important. It is why there was a beginning. Our part is entirely predicated on love – to love Him absolutely and each other unconditionally.
In the substance of “all that there is”, that we are blind in our bodies. Our vision and minds are utterly limited to comprehending Truth, but that the Spirit reveals Truth to us. Among the truths that I have experienced in these night travels is that what we mortals consider to be the physical realm – space and time, past present and future – fields, particles and the ilk - is all merely geometry.
I am a newcomer to this thread having been out of town for a week, but in scanning the replies I see the thread has been a bone of contention among believers. That is very sad. Our duty is to love and thus, I decline to participate in contention and only offer this, my personal experience, in praise of Him.
But then, your cohorts aren't exactly standing up any taller than you are either. Seems like your in very compatible company.
'Good company' doesn't seem to be the most apt phrase that comes to mind! LOL.
OH!
I almost forgot, . . .
that post was hardly about my
EXPERIENCE WITH GOD
at all.
It was about my experience with your . . . well . . . what sort of passed as an
intellectual post.
That's clearly a VERY different matter for me. If it had been my experience with GOD, I'd have had to illustrate with a few dozen additional colors and at least a few more font faces and formatting fun.
BTW, the book by . . . who is it . . . Black?
EXPERIENCING GOD
is a great book. I realize it's probably too big, potent, meaningful and hefty to fit inside your tidy little book box closet--but it's the brotherly thing to mention it. Now, it's between you and God.
Blessings,
Quit picking on Harley please. Try to apportion a little grace to those posters who disagree with your opinions....
Fantastic response, as usual Angel-Gal,
Much agree with you all around except that I too often feel more constrained by far than I'd prefer to play another role.
Have had similar night travels but infrequently. Well described, on your part.
LUB,
THANKS FOR YOUR PRAYERS. Iron sharpening iron can produce far more sparks than I prefer.
Am going to see if one way or another this current cessationist discussion can't be put into another thread either in religion--preferable--or chat.
God's best to you and yours!
Thought I was, Dad,
really.
Grace and intellectual slack when the intellectual aspect of Scripture etc. is the main point of the hijacked topic are, to me, very different things.
I have 0.0% trouble extending all the grace in my capacity to each of you. I greatly appreciate the lack of personal assaults etc. Am extending the same in response!
But to cease the assault the silly notions of cessationism is not at all part of my sense of The Lord's press within me on this topic.
You are easy to love and even like many aspects of your characters and personality. But, please, it seems rather illogical and unreasonable to expect me to be wimpy about the issues!
Perhaps I don't understand your point.
Heading off to the college. Back later.
Thanks for your exhortation. Don't know that I can make anything else of it unless I misunderstand.
It does seem to me . . .
a little . . . no . . . a LOT . . . . more than merely paradoxical . . .
the group of you characters come at me relentlessly hijacking the thread with great intensity as well as no small amount of viscious personal attack.
I respond to you now with great vigor and intensity minus the viscious personal attack. I'm one person. It's ON YOUR CHOSEN TOPIC on my thread.
And I'm the bad one???
Curious.
I grant you that my bird-of-rare-plumage idiosyncracies and style . . . that all that is different from your flavors of vigor and intensity. But that stuff should not even be an issue, it seems to me.
I'm not asking you to be wimpy, just Christlike, my friend. But enough said. I will kindly recuse myself.
Can you remotely appreciate my reality, Dad?
You come in as a group.
You take over the thread with great intensity, hostility, vigor, etc.
DEMANDING
that I comply on my thread with discussing
YOUR
topic according to YOUR preferences.
When I FINALLY start getting together Scriptures and other docs about your topic on my thread
then you all run away
and
BLAME ME
for your scurry-ing away without engaging much at all in the dialogue you've been indignantly--even assaultively demanding!
And you want me to think THAT'S
Christlike?
Pretty cheeky seems a LOT more accurate a description, to me.
BTW, I think my last however many posts have been more Christlike than ya'll's.
But I'm happy to extend tons of grace on such scores. Always have been. I do like people to engage in a healthy give and take--especially one they've been DEMANDING at the end of a GROUP of long pointy fingers!
It's just REAL CONVENIENT that ya'll have withdrawn in this thunderous silence.
I realize you have a formidible job to just respond at all to the data on the table. But I really, REALLY DID expect better of all of you.
Guess I'll go through it again and see if I have any other comment . . .
It's refreshing to read a Calvinist who lets God be God in straight forward Biblical ways without trying to box Him into a tidy little box.
"I can only speak for what I believe and why I believe it. If you disagree then that is quite alright. As Romans 14 says, we are not to pass judgment on our brother's (and sister's) debatable issues. And the spiritual gifts is definitely a debatable issue."
I find that an entirely Biblical position! As is the following about I Cor 13 justifying Cessationism:
"The only place in Scripture that explicitly states when gifts will cease is 1 Cor. 13:8-13. In part it reads, "When the perfect comes the imperfect shall be done away with." Some vigorously maintain that the "perfect" is the completed Bible and, therefore, the extraordinary gifts are no longer needed. If someone wants to believe that, fine. But I do not think these verses can be used to support cessationism. This is why. Verse 12 says, "...then we shall see face to face." The word "then" refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Since the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, a quick examination of the way God uses the term "face to face" should help us understand this passage better.
The phrase is used throughout the Bible and always means an encounter with a person. When God uses it in reference to Himself, it means a visual, personal encounter with Him (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 33:11; Num. 12:8; Duet. 5:4; and Jer. 32:4). Likewise in the New Testament. There it is also used in speaking of personal encounter (2 Cor. 10:1; 2 John 12; 3 John 14, etc.). "When the perfect comes...then we shall see face to face" seems, most logically, to refer a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase."
I don't see how any Cessationist could have any idea any further that I Cor 13 was the least bit useful to their argument.
And, as the author says--there ARE NO OTHER VERSES IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE saying such a thing. Actually there are none close to saying such a thing. Trying to get the Scriptures to say such a thing becomes a grossly convoluted mental gymnastics/rubber Bible exercise.
Another solid explanation is:
"It would seem most consistent with scripture to say that "...as I am fully known" would refer to a salvation relationship between Jesus and the Christian. At the return of Christ we (the ones known) shall know fully; we shall see face to face the One who is our Savior. "
And the following sentences speak of the KNOWING so excellently, imho:
"Also, we don't "know" Jesus through the Scripture; we know about Him from the Scripture (John 5:39). Instead, we know Him by personal encounter (John 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:9) through the Holy Spirit's indwelling. We don't know fully right now, even though we have the Bible, because we still are corrupted by our sin nature. In our fallen state we can only see Christ through sin-clouded eyes. We see a reflection of Christ in the Word. When Jesus returns the reflection of the truth will pass to clear understanding (the way childish thoughts give way to mature ones) when we receive our resurrected bodies, no longer have to battle sinful flesh, and can see Him face to face because "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2).. "Then we shall know fully." "
Utoh-----the following flushes the Cessationist position down the toilet and slams the lid shut most resoundingly:
"Interestingly, 1 Cor. 1:7 may be consulted here. It says, "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." (NIV)"
Rather starkly clear, imho! IF ONE CLAIMS TO TAKE SCRIPTURE AS THE AUTHORITY AT ALL--THAT ONE PASSAGE SHOULD SETTLE IT! But there are many more! Perhaps that's why the Cessationists have become suddenly silent. It's abundantly clear FROM SCRIPTURE, that their gig is up. They asked for--actually DEMANDED such Scriptures--but when presented with them, they seem to turn tail and run headlong into the silent corner! LOL.
Here's another absolutely clear proof that the cessationist position is bankrupt:
"The Greek word here for "revealed" is apokalupsis. It means the apocalypse, the return of Jesus. In both this verse and 1 Cor. 13:8-13 the gifts, which aren't differentiated as to which kind they are, are connected to the return of Christ, not the completion of the Bible. "
The following is such a concise and lucid declaration of fact--I just have to cheer and repeat it as is:
"Argument 2: Present day tongues are further revelation and must then be equal to Scripture and should be included in the Bible. But since the Bible is not to be added to, the gift of tongues (and therefore, the rest of the spiritual gifts) must no longer be valid.
This is a faulty argument because the Scripture itself recognizes inspired revelation that is not to be added to the Bible: "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church" (1 Cor. 14:26). "
I realize that groups of folk ARE SIMPLY NOT THE LEAST BIT INTERESTED IN OBEYING SCRIPTURES on the above passage's score--both IN Pentecostalism AND OUT of it. But the Scripture is very clear. And we all suffer when we avoid running our meetings accordingly.
As society breaks down in the end times and house and other secret meetings occur more and more all around the world, the meeting described in Scripture above WILL BECOME THE NORM. PRAISE GOD. Pretty sad that it will take such persecution and other traumas to bring us to the place where we FINALLY FOLLOW THE SIMPLE CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS IN THE MANUAL about how to run our meetings!
Here's another great paragraph by this Calvinist brother. Goodness--so much agreement!
Here, in the Corinthian church, revelations were given that were not made part of the Bible. This shows that there were, for a lack of a better word, "different" kinds of revelation: one from the prophets and apostles meant for canonization and another through the Spirit to be used in the church for edification--not canonization. So, in my opinion, for someone to maintain that revelation today is a threat to the Canon does not consider 1 Cor. 14:26, is not applying scripture properly here, and is being illogical.
INDEED! They are not being logical, AT ALL.
I do believe that he could have also added this fact. HOW DID SCRIPTURE COME TO BE RECOGNIZED AS SCRIPTURE??? Essentially by a 300 year process of application, sorting, praying, observing, understanding--culminating in the Council of Trent, I believe it was.
That was a group of flawed, sinful believers guided by Holy Spirit in discerning inputs from Holy Spirit to be assessed as authentic and worthy of inclusion in The Canon . . . this after 300 years of application of said Scriptures.
Somehow, that group of sinful believers was supposedly more saintly than any group following I Cor 14:29 today? Hogwash.
NO! I'm not suggesting that groups of believers now deciding on whether a given tongue interpretation; dream & interpretation; prohecy etc. is authentic and worth attention and application OR NOT--I'm NOT suggesting that such groups are more or less equal to the task of also adding to Scripture. I'm not suggesting that AT ALL.
I am noting that the process is essentially similar, THOUGH MARKEDLY ABBREVIATED IN TIME and probably often in terms of quality spiritual experiences and maturities of ALL the members in the group.
I suppose it is CONCEIVABLE that millenia or some such centuries hence, God could decree that some such events from various representative believers experiences could be collected into a book and Canonized. But I doubt it will happen. I don't see it as necessary at all. He declares that Heaven and Earth shall pass away but His Word, not. Sounds pretty special to me--though we don't precisely know what HE MEANT by "HIS WORD" in that sentence.
The author does well with the following in a short space:
Argument 3: There is such misuse of the gifts that they couldn't possibly be real.
First of all, misuse of the gifts implies their existence. They couldn't be misused if they did not exist. The only real position to be taken here would be that the use of the gifts really is no use, but is only fakery and self-deception.
I don't see the tedious elaborations that follow as all that interesting though they are a quality refutation of the idea of the cessationists.
Certianly gifts are misused--AS IS PLAIN SCRIPTURE EVERY SUNDAY IN CALVINIST AND NONCALVINIST PULPITS AROUND THE WORLD.
I loved the author's strikeouts of Scripture to illustrate the Bible the Cessationists are left with. I think it's duplicitous slight of hand rationalizing on their part to pretend that they just cross out sentence after sentence and verse after verse of THE MANUAL; OF HOLY SCRIPTURE and all the while pretend they have done no violence to the Text nor to The Church thereby.
It is mental gymnastics to say that this and this and this and this and that and that and that have absolutely no application for us as Believers in our era but we will sort of pretend that they are still HOLY Scripture. We'll consider them sort of quaint decorations that were maybe unwisely left in.
What sacrilige! imho, of course.
When we see God, it will NOT be how much Scripture we have read. It will NOT be how much Scripture we've even memorized.
I love it when folks who've never heard of Jesus hear the Good News, receive Him wholeheartedly and take a few scraps of Scripture and APPLY THEM EARENSTLY, HUMBLY IN CHILD-LIKE FAITH--AND GOD AND HIS SPIRIT AND SEEMINLY HOSTS OF ANGELS DESCEND AND MIRACULOUSLY CONFIRM WITH WONDEROUS SIGNS FOLLOWING.
And satan and his goons tuck tail and run faintly whimpering that they've been bested and it's painful.
I LOVE THAT.
I gather Father gets a big tickle out of it, too!
USN DAD, Dr E and DEJ,
I have tons of Grace and compassion, even regarding you folks going off and licking your wounds in this intellectual discourse. Your position has been well and good shredded in quadruplicate at every layer.
However, even nonChristian integrity requires you to finish what you started in SOME SORT OF EARNEST DIALGUE SORT OF FASHION.
Certainly Christian integrity requires that.
I realize that millions of pastors do not model it and do not even teach it around the world. But The Scriptures teach it and God requires it. We fail to do it to our hurt and peril.
Hit and run drivers are not Christlike in their doing so.
I'm happy to do my part in whatever way is remotely fitting. Just give me a clue.
Blessings,
THE FOLLOWING IS FROM A DEAR FREEPER SISTER:
my situation, we left virginia and moved to [a central Mid-West State] [several years ago] because of concerns about Y2K. the home/outbuilding we bought, though old, on a double lot in the middle of [a rural village] proper, have the capacity to house as many as necessary if TEOTWAKI occurs. that's still true, though i will need truckloads of wisdom to carry on without [a beloved helper recently graduated].
The prophecies we are getting at Rivers of Joy in [town] is that many will flee TO us and that God's sending REVIVAL and we must be ready to step into leadership roles as He calls us.
but have regularly conversed with a 70-y.o. lady Y who lives in W MO (she's a spinner BTW), and she lives alone on a homestead and raises her own meat and veggies, except for being legalistic about food . . . she is way cool ... and we have discussed the Geo Wash vision and it pertinence to our post-911 world ...
Per Y H, from Jefferson City MO to Warrensburg MO, known as The Heart Of Missouri, we are to be somewhat spared. will copy / paste one email that I haven't deleted:
Dear Sister I think I wrote you about The Vision of Invading Forces in the last year or so. Yes, it's coming. The important thing for you to remember is that the invasion from the north will stop at the Missouri River; the invasion from the west will stop at the MO/KS line; the invasion from the south will stop somewhere down around Springfield, MO.
For some unknown reason, we will not be bothered by the enemy from the east. I would definitely stock up on nonperishable foods, water, and, if you can heat with wood, have a woodburner and some wood on hand. You have a map to my place, but I warn you that I do not use sugar or any refined flour or other food, just the basic, oldfashioned whole foods, also, I use no meat except what I grow myself. You might have trouble with those things. You can also expect earthquakes, one of the reasons for stocking up on water and fuel as those lines will be disrupted.
For some unknown reason, we will not be bothered by the enemy from the east.
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Good old Southern Baptist Bible Belt and we got all the guns!
Only Joking LOL
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