Posted on 10/02/2004 3:48:27 PM PDT by Quix
ROFL!!! Boy...that was alot of work.
But for you Quix, I will try to remember to paragraph, or learn to spell it. LOL
Headed to watch the debates, and chewing my nails to the nubbins.
I did good didn't I? 3 new paragraphs. lol
Bingo!
YEA! HALLELUJAH! SNOOPY DANCE! WHITE SPACE!
PTL!
Thanks BIG, Briar. Much appreciated! You should see the post I left the guy who dared to put a title of a thread up that totally consisted only of "WOW!"
That's the OTHER FR crusade of mine--against meaningless titles which convey no meaning, thoughtlessly requiring one to stop a rapid scroll through and open to see if it's worth bothering with. Often I just scroll on by.
Anyway--will be on the computer with the debate in the background, as usual.
LUB,
LUB!
ANY FOOD SCIENCE AND NUTRITIONISTS who know what the effects would be of aspirin and orange juice?
I don't have a clue.
Thanks.
Gads, I'm sleepy, I don't think I'm going to make it through the debate!
Long night last night getting the fringe ready on the art piece for the show! LOL.
Always enjoy hearing from you. THX>
I don't remember David mentioning seeing a vision about 9/11, just what will happen to NYC in the future. I need to check his writings and see if he did say some things about 9/11...
Thank you for this thread. Sorry that some of the younger Christians are pestering. I would suggest to those to read, "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit" by Jack Deere. He was a seminary professor who didn't believe that the Spirit falls on people or the gifts being for today.
I'd forgotten Deere's work. I wonder how much is on the net.
Thanks much.
Appreciate your comments.
Experiential Calvinism and the Charismatic Gifts
The issue of the whether or not the extraordinary spiritual gifts are for today has caused much debate and opinion in the body of Christ. There are biblically based groups who say that if you do speak in tongues, then you are under demonic control and are not saved. On the other hand, there are groups who say that if you do not speak in tongues then you are not saved.
Both sides use scripture to support their position. As far as the Reformed camp goes, the position is that the gifts died with the apostles as the Bible was completed. As a Calvinist, and after examining the biblical evidence for cessationism, I do not believe that the extraordinary spiritual gifts have ceased. Therefore, I call myself an "Experiential Calvinist." As an experiential Calvinist, I seek the Holy Spirit, His filling, and I am open to God using me and others in extraordinary ways.
If you are Reformed, you might be slapping your forehead right now and saying something like, "How could he possibly believe that?". I do because I have examined the scriptures and am convinced by what I read. The following paper, in part, is what I have discovered.
Please understand, that even though I am convinced that I am right, I am also convinced that I could be wrong. I can only speak for what I believe and why I believe it. If you disagree then that is quite alright. As Romans 14 says, we are not to pass judgment on our brother's (and sister's) debatable issues. And the spiritual gifts is definitely a debatable issue.
For simplicity sake, I will state a standard objection to the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts and then I will give what I believe is a basic but sufficient refutation for that argument. All the verses quoted are listed in full at the end of this paper.
Argument 1:
Since we have the Bible we do not need spiritual gifts. 1 Cor. 13:8-10 is usually quoted as scriptural support for the position.
The only place in Scripture that explicitly states when gifts will cease is 1 Cor. 13:8-13. In part it reads, "When the perfect comes the imperfect shall be done away with." Some vigorously maintain that the "perfect" is the completed Bible and, therefore, the extraordinary gifts are no longer needed. If someone wants to believe that, fine. But I do not think these verses can be used to support cessationism. This is why.
Verse 12 says, "...then we shall see face to face." The word "then" refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Since the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, a quick examination of the way God uses the term "face to face" should help us understand this passage better.
The phrase is used throughout the Bible and always means an encounter with a person. When God uses it in reference to Himself, it means a visual, personal encounter with Him (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 33:11; Num. 12:8; Duet. 5:4; and Jer. 32:4). Likewise in the New Testament. There it is also used in speaking of personal encounter (2 Cor. 10:1; 2 John 12; 3 John 14, etc.). "When the perfect comes...then we shall see face to face" seems, most logically, to refer a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase.
If the position is take that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, how then do we encounter God in the same manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person. Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns.
Another "then" is mentioned in verse 12: "then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." The word "then" again refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Again, we need to look at how the Bible uses words, this time, the word "know." Scripture says that eternal life is to know God (John 17:3). Only the believer is known by Jesus (John 10:27; Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29). The unbeliever is not known by Jesus (Matt. 7:21-23). No where in the Bible does it say that an unbeliever is known by God. This is a salvific knowing; that is, it is a kind of knowing that God does of His people. He knows them and they are saved. The unbelievers are not known and are, therefore, not saved.
It would seem most consistent with scripture to say that "...as I am fully known" would refer to a salvation relationship between Jesus and the Christian. At the return of Christ we (the ones known) shall know fully; we shall see face to face the One who is our Savior.
Also, we don't "know" Jesus through the Scripture; we know about Him from the Scripture (John 5:39). Instead, we know Him by personal encounter (John 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:9) through the Holy Spirit's indwelling. We don't know fully right now, even though we have the Bible, because we still are corrupted by our sin nature. In our fallen state we can only see Christ through sin-clouded eyes. We see a reflection of Christ in the Word. When Jesus returns the reflection of the truth will pass to clear understanding (the way childish thoughts give way to mature ones) when we receive our resurrected bodies, no longer have to battle sinful flesh, and can see Him face to face because "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2).. "Then we shall know fully."
The context of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 seems, to me, to show that the spiritual gifts will cease when Jesus returns. Interestingly, 1 Cor. 1:7 may be consulted here. It says, "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." (NIV)
The Greek word here for "revealed" is apokalupsis. It means the apocalypse, the return of Jesus. In both this verse and 1 Cor. 13:8-13 the gifts, which aren't differentiated as to which kind they are, are connected to the return of Christ, not the completion of the Bible.
Argument 2:
Present day tongues are further revelation and must then be equal to Scripture and should be included in the Bible. But since the Bible is not to be added to, the gift of tongues (and therefore, the rest of the spiritual gifts) must no longer be valid.
This is a faulty argument because the Scripture itself recognizes inspired revelation that is not to be added to the Bible: "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church" (1 Cor. 14:26).
Here, in the Corinthian church, revelations were given that were not made part of the Bible. This shows that there were, for a lack of a better word, "different" kinds of revelation: one from the prophets and apostles meant for canonization and another through the Spirit to be used in the church for edification--not canonization. So, in my opinion, for someone to maintain that revelation today is a threat to the Canon does not consider 1 Cor. 14:26, is not applying scripture properly here, and is being illogical.
Argument 3:
There is such misuse of the gifts that they couldn't possibly be real.
First of all, misuse of the gifts implies their existence. They couldn't be misused if they did not exist. The only real position to be taken here would be that the use of the gifts really is no use, but is only fakery and self-deception.
First, it cannot be denied that the gifts are misused. I have heard manifestations of tongues, interpretations of tongues, and prophecy that, in my opinion, were not genuine. But I do not discredit the gifts based upon those experiences anymore than I would say the spiritual gifts are alive because I saw them used well and accurately. The final authority is the word of God. Experience does not make doctrine, the Bible does.
Second, it is not a sick child that needs discipline and correction, it is the active, energetic, exploring child that needs to be guided. This was so with the Corinthian church. They were using the gifts greatly but improperly and needed to be corrected.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Regarding "Face to Face":
Genesis 32:30 - "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Exodus 33:11 - "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent."
Numbers 12:8 - "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Deuteronomy 5:4 - "The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain."
Jeremiah 32:4 - "Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes."
2 Corinthians 10:1 - "By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you -- I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away!"
2 John 12 - "I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete."
3 John 14 - "I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face. Peace to you. The friends here send their greetings. Greet the friends there by name."
Regarding "Know"
John 10:27 - "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
Galatians 4:8-9 - "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God -- or rather are known by God -- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?"
Romans 8:29 - "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son..."
Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Note: This paper was written in response to an examination at Westminster Theological Seminary where I obtained my M.Div. The occasion was generated by my receiving a call to a local pastorate.
When it was discovered I believed in the spiritual gifts, I was examined and, eventually, refused the pastorate because I beleived in the perpetuity of the gifts. In response to the examiners requests I read the following cessationist material. Perhaps this bibliography will help you make a decision for yourself.
The Final Word by O. Palmer Robertson Perspectives on Pentecost, by Richard B. Gaffin, Jr. Charismatic Chaos, by John MacArthur. The articles, Has the Charismatic Age Ceased, by Donald MacLeod; The Charismatic Movement: Spectrum of Theological Opinion and Attitude, by Pastor Dave Eby; Can we Do Miracles Today? by Erroll Hulse; A Summary of Robert L. Dabney on 'Spurious Religious Excitements, by Daniel E. Wray; The Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit--Have They Ceased?, by Roland S. Barnes; The Cessation of Extraordinary Gifts: Historical Evidence, by Geoffrey Thomas; and Scripture Verses the Spiritual Gifts?", by Elliot Miller at Christian Research Institute. The pamphlet, Crucial Issues Regarding Tongues, by Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. A Pastoral Letter Concerning the Experience of the Holy Spirit in the Church Today, adopted by the Second General Assembly of the PCA.
To be fair, I also read the non-cessationist book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, by Jack Deere which proved to be most enlightening.
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Following is a point of illustration.
If the cessationist argument is true then it seems to negate parts of the Bible; namely, parts where spiritual gifts for the church are listed and exemplified. I have reproduced 1 Cor. 12,13, and 14 and "crossed out," by making the text bold, [QUIX NOTE: I believe his idea is an excellent one. It's the literal, honest, functional acting out, demonstration of the cessationist perspective. Any other fantasy about the written text is either not congruent and honestly in keeping with cessationism--OR--it's NOT congruent and honestly in keeping with THE WRITTEN TEXT. However, I believe that the author did not follow through consistently enough. So, where I believe additional strikeouts would be more congruent with cessationism than what the author struck out--I dropped his bolding and but continued the strikeout without the bolding as my own fuller demonstration of his point]
those portions that are no longer applicable from a cessationist point of view. The specific verses may be debatable, but I think the point is made.
1 Corinthians 12:1-31
1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free -- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment.
[QUIX NOTE: IT AMAZES ME on rereading these precious passages--Paul is CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT THE BODY OF CHIRST. He is NOT talking about some tiny slice of time about a tiny group of apostles and prophets of only the dusty pathed days of Jesus and the apostles. That idea is just nonsensical when the whole thing is taken in context.
Paul is talking about; Holy Spirit is talking about THE DIFFERENT UNIQUE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST FUNCTIONING TOGETHER AS THE BODY OF CHIRST. No other interpretation is possible. PART AND PARCEL OF THAT DISCUSSION IS THE INTEGRATION FITTINGLY, APPROPRIATELY, PROPERLY of the operation of the Gifts.]
But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. (NIV)
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (NIV)
1 Corinthians 14:1-40
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?
8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you.
Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. 22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation.
All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at the most three, should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. [QX EMPHESIS FOLLOWS in blue bold] 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (NIV)
I would be very interested in hearing your comments on this paper. Please E-mail at the address below.
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Return to the Calvinist Corner
Copyright by Matthew J. Slick, B.A., M. Div., 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 I welcome your comments via E-mail at matt@carm.org
FROM:
The following is as good a presentation as I think I've seen of both sides, in at least many respects. There are a large number of links as well--painstakingly added!
NOTE: I *FINALLY* got it to post without mushing all together and without having to put the codes in. I did deleate an approximation sign in the process. An approx 7 pages turned thereby into 7 pages. somewhere below.
Blessings, Qx
I had thought of not posting but thought this was an issue worth sharing. Please keep in mind ANY type of "experience" should be suspect. I have never found a way to test whether something is from God or not.
If you'll notice some of these posts, many of these people would have been stoned in the Old Testament days simply because their "prophesies" never came true. To me all this "experience" dabbles too close to things we were never meant to explore. It is through God written word that He reveals Himself, not through some experience or feeling we may have.
Quix knocks the Calvinists but it was because of God revealing Himself to me in the manner that He did that I became a Calvinist. I didn't freely "go forward" or "make a choice" like Quix teaches. So that places my Calvinistic "experience" squarely against Quix's theological Arminian position which means 1) either my "experience" of salvation is wrong or 2) Quix's theological position is wrong. Either my “experience” is not God given or Quix is teaching false doctrine. In the method that I was saved Quix can’t have it both ways.
The very FIRST thing God instilled within my heart when I became a "new creature in Christ" was to read His word-and I might add it was the first thing that was attacked. The only way you can have a relationship with God is through His word and through prayer. I too would leave a church that would forbid the reading and studying of the ENTIRE Bible. But DON’T look for an “experience” from God. He’s not into parlor games. Instead, “STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED”.
But, I trust in God more than anybody here on Earth.
thank you for the info. I'll keep praying urgently for the President's safety and health. AND for VICTORY on Nov. 2! :O)
God bless you!
FWIW, I dreamt for a second time in the last two months of volcanic activity occuring along the northern border of Joshua Tree national Park,...numerous fissures and lava flows with some pyroclastic flows along about the 34th latitude. The area to the south seemed to slip or fall with volcanism running from west to east along the foothills of the northern border of what is now Joshua Tree national Park.
I had a dream several years ago of volcanism in the Palm Springs to La Quinta and Salton Sea area at the southern edge of the Coechella valley, about a mile north of the foothills, but nothing regarding volcanism since then, until about a month ago.
About a week before the mt St Helens emergence in the press, I had a dream of a volcanic eruption with pyrocastic flow between Yucca Valley and Joshua Tree along the northern boundary of Joshua Tree National Park. The eruption was violent with half a ridge and hillside descending to the south and a large dust cloud/pyroclastic flow emanating to the north, but no obvious lava, but numerous fires.
I awoke about half an hour ago from the dream of volcanic activity beginning in seemingly the first week of December, near sundown, with lots of lightning, but no noise extending from Joshua Tree to 29 Palms along the northern border of Joshua Tree National Park.
The dream from several years ago about Palm Springs had been preceded by a dream about a ridgeline and activity in Mt. Lassen. I had never read the name before and was unaware of the existence of Mt. Lassen prior to the dream. After running a web search I bumped ino some photos which depicted the same image I had from the dream.
ANY FOOD SCIENCE AND NUTRITIONISTS who know what the effects would be of aspirin and orange juice?
****
You won't have a cold or a headache!!! ROFL
THANKS. IMPRESSIVE.
I don't doubt the authenticity at all.
I have long felt that the Salton Sea area depression would end up compromised into the Gulf of California and become inundated with sea water--inundating massive amounts of food producing farm land.
Have also been a bit concerned that the San Francisco Peaks at Flagstaff AZ would come alive again.
I think people really miss the import of Scriptures talking about the earth being flooded with evil and, in essence, sort of heaving it out, throwing it off, so to speak. I don't have a quick keyword handy to look such up with at the moment.
God often gives the believers significant hints but in cryptic ways which leave the unbeliever clueless.
Yeah, I was a bit skeptical that such would do much of anything except give one a lot of acid stomach.
Quix knocks the Calvinists but it was because of God revealing Himself to me in the manner that He did that I became a Calvinist. I didn't freely "go forward" or "make a choice" like Quix teaches. So that places my Calvinistic "experience" squarely against Quix's theological Arminian position which means 1) either my "experience" of salvation is wrong or 2) Quix's theological position is wrong. Either my “experience” is not God given or Quix is teaching false doctrine. In the method that I was saved Quix can’t have it both ways.
And you wrote that stuff straight faced? YOUR contradiction meter didn't peg off the scale???
You seem to take at least a couple of flying leaps off the logic cliff.
God does tons of things that seem to defy my expectations or ways of doing things. However: (A) He's God and I'm not! PTL! (B) His ways are higher than my ways. (C) He's welcome to do thing with any individual or any part of Creation any way He chooses. I trust His ways and His Nature.
What you describe is not very well described. Evidently there was some sort of
whereby you went into the experience a NONBELIEVER and a NONCALVINIST and came out of the
a believer and a Calvinist. It could easily be that God, realizing your psychological makeup etc., realized that there was one way to get you into the Kingdom in anything remotely like a timely way and that was the 'Calvinist' route.
I could certainly understand that from His perspective, it was far better to have you IN THE KINGDOM as a Calvinist rather than still outside The Kingdom.
There could also be any number of other reasons that The Lord allowed/facilitated things to go along that route.
FURTHER . . . such an experience has AT LEAST two sides and two parties--God's and yours.
There are ALL KINDS OF ISSUES, FACTORS, COMPONENTS etc. on both sides. You wholesale label the whole thing a certain glib, fuzzy, vague, shallow way. There's any number of other possible, plausible, Scriptural explanations and descriptions one might come up with.
"Sorry," your characterization doesn't box in my construction on reality, in the least.
The only way you can have a relationship with God is through His word and through prayer.
Oh, dear--"relationship"--as in an experience of an exchange between at least two personalities! Great!
is through His Word and prayer.
Great, as far as it goes. Kind of sounds rather anemic in a long list of ways. Kind of like getting married and on the first Honeymoon Night, the new wife says:
Oh, Honey, it's sooooooooooooo great to read all these cards and tags on all the gifts. Reading all these boxes and instruction manuals for all our gifts is soooooooo wonderful. It's such a thrill. Thanks soooooooooo much! NOW DON'T TOUCH ME! I CAN'T HANDLE THAT KIND OF EXPERIENCE! I know that the only thing tolerable for my marriage is to read all these manuals and cards and gift tags and to dream of a Heavenly Honeymoon. Thanks anyway. But NO TOUCHING. That's evil!
God have mercy! What unBiblical, satanic nonsense from the pit of hell. What a hideous doctrine of demons!
THE GOD OF ALL THAT IS GOES TO SUCH GREAT LENGTHS TO GIVE HIS SON THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THE MOST INTIMATE OF RELATIONSHIPS RESTORED WITH MAN.
THE SON LEAVES THIS PLANET AND SENDS HOLY SPIRIT TO CONSUMATE THE
And clever satan has seduced masses of even earnest believers into being content--even defensive about contenting themselves with reading the manuals and gift tags on the gifts! What hideous NONSENSE! How it must grieve The Father, The Son and The Spirit!
THEY WON'T EVEN
THE MANUAL IN THEIR !!!!RELATIONSHIP!!!! WITH THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE SPIRIT!!!!!!! DOH!!!
And The Father watches, grieves and shakes His head at how excruciatingly bluntly He has to spell it out in neon colors with miraculous handwriting on the walls and lives and minds of countless Calvinists stubbornly resistent to His Spirit . . . stubbornly resistent to even simply applying the manual!
I too would leave a church that would forbid the reading and studying of the ENTIRE Bible.
That's great to read. Could have fooled me! But, really, I understand what you're saying. A church should
the entire Bible--they'd just better be darn careful about encouraging anyone to
VERY SIGNIFICANT PORTIONS OF THE KEY NEW TESTAMENT PORTION OF THE MANUAL FOR CHRISTIAN LIFE!!!!
Yeah, right. Makes perfect NONsense!
But DON’T look for an “experience” from God.
WELLLLLLLLLL! I guess we have to throw out your conversion, then!
Not only so, but we'll HAVE to THROW OUT ALL those thousands of seconds of your
with the WRITTEN manual.
BTW, PERHAPS you all could explain:
WHY
THAT PARTICULAR ARBITRARY
CHOICE?
Oh, I know the answer to that one!
(1) Not a choice in the first place--Calvinists don't have choices!!! LOL.
(2) Your personality factors demanded something more
than all that other delicate, difficult to discern; tricky to apply; hard to measure, !!!!CONTROL!!!! and package, Spiritually sexy STUFF! (Oh, dear me, where's the hanky? Bring me my hives medicine! I mean, REALLY, King David should have been stoned for such a dance before the Ark! DISGRACEFUL. His wife was RIGHT! Why did SHE get punished? DAVID WAS THE BAD BOY! What a DISGRACEFUL EXPERIENCE HE WAS BRAZENLY DEMONSTRATING! TSK TSK TSK! /sar)
Of course, "safer" is nonsense. Witness all the 100's of heresies over the many centuries based ?totally? on some VERY FLAWED
with the WRITTEN MANUAL.
Witness all the mangled new believers and seekers in countless congregations every Sunday from all the mishandling of the WRITTEN MANUAL in intellectually AND WITH HARSH EMOTIONS verbally grabbing folks by the throat and BEATING THEM ABOUT THE HEAD AND SHOULDERS TOWARD A HOPELESS HEART by EXPERIENCES of abusing the WRITTEN MANUAL in an intellectual dance, exercise, hideous display of emotional, intellectual abuse of individuals AND OF THE WRITTEN MANUAL--trying to hammer and pound into tidy little boxed confirmity all the ears and gray matter between of all those in earshot of the GRAND PONTIFICATOR nearby
And this is supposed to be SAFER? Only because it's YOUR particular tidy little boxed cells that you're so gleefully, smugly, proudly hammering folks into!
He’s not into parlor games.
True--usually. HOWEVER, CALLING HOLY SPIRIT'S DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S WILL, MAJESTY AND POWER A "parlor game"
is NOT likely to endear you to The Father. But You're not really interested in an EXPERIENCE with The Father anyway. You just want to read about Him FROM A
You just want some nice, safe, comfortable mental masturbation looking at the ink on pages in the tiny, tidy little box closet of your mind.
ACTUALLY, God is USUALLY much more dramatic than hoakey, phoney little anemic parlor games. Even if it's a quiet miracle within someone's heart--it's still much more dramatic than a parlor game. I realize your constitution can't stand or handle dramatic. But you might prepare yourself. God happens to be very dramatic and is going to demonstrate it much more so than ever before--shortly. And, HEAVEN has TONS of drama! Perhaps you'd better plan on taking your smelling salts.
WHY you VERY ARBITRARILY choose that sort of closet masturbation EXPERIENCE viewing the the pretty intellectual pictures in the ink on the page INSTEAD of having a vibrant, restored-garden-walk with The Living God kind of experience--is somewhat mystifying--EXCEPT when one takes into consideration the psychological factors involved.
Instead, “STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED”.
Oh, it's GREAT TO STUDY
and then to go out or in and APPLY THE WRITTEN DANCE MANUAL in my
RELATIONSHIP
with The Father, The Son and The Spirit.
THAT DANCE IS WELL WORTH THE
PRACTICE!
Sigh.
SOMEONE sent me a FREEPMAIL about authorizing me to post a FREEPMAILED dream hereon.
It's been sort of left in the dust amidst dozens and dozens of FREEPMAILS. It would be a lot easier if that person sees this and resends it to me.
Thanks,
DREAMS/VISIONS THREAD PING
LOL
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