Denver Synagogue Vandalized(Passion of Christ Blamed)

9News .com (Denver) ^ | 3/6/2004 4:44:35 PM | Paola Farer

[woofie]

DENVER - A Denver synagogue was damaged with graffiti overnight. Swastikas were drawn on the synagogue on south Monaco Parkway.

The graffiti was in the doorway and across a sign. There were also several symbols drawn on the back wall of the building.

A holocaust survivor who saw the graffiti says it was almost too much to take. There was no official response available from the congregation Saturday, although several people who called 9NEWS to report the damage said that they blamed Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of the Christ” for rekindling anti-Semitism.

Members of the congregation will gather Sunday morning to start cleaning off the graffiti.

[DestroytheDemocrats]

"It's kind of like the difference between driving by an accident along the highway and seeing someone dead... It's different when it's someone you love."

Okay. But in his day many people converted to Christ before he was ever crucified and never saw him crucified. Would it would be fair to say that the quality of their conversion and walk with the Lord was less than it would have been had they seen it.

[DestroytheDemocrats]

"It's kind of like the difference between driving by an accident along the highway and seeing someone dead... It's different when it's someone you love."

Okay. But in his day many people converted to Christ before he was ever crucified and never saw him crucified. Would it would be fair to say that the quality of their conversion and walk with the Lord was less than it would have been had they seen it.

[Cold Heat]

Sure seems that way.:-)

I would hope not, but the fact that ADL lost that big law suit for defamation of a Denver couple has by BS detector going off.

However, incidents of this type, while less common these days, still happen and Denver schools are notoriously stupid when it comes to discipline and unruly kids.

[Cold Heat]

But in his day many people converted to Christ before he was ever crucified

While he had a loving following, they had not"converted" in any sense of the word.

They were still Jews.

Jesus taught a way of life, and not a Religion.IMO

[Polybius]

In some parts of Eastern Europe, the Jews had been used to second class treatment for a long time before WWII. However, in Germany, antisemitism was more subtle. My family was very entrenched in GERMAN life, as were most German Jews. They were not religious, they did not dress differently, they were very involved in commerce and civics and charities.

I as an American Jew in fact feel that there is much culturally institutionalized anti-Christianity here, especially in the media and Hollywood, and I try to fight it where I can.

It seems that we have come to the same conclusion that Central and Eastern European ancestral memory and bias is causing great deal of harm in this issue.

I elaborated on this topic on Post 82 on this thread and also, by numerical coincidence, on Post 82 on an earlier thread.

To qoute from my earler posts:

************************************

What I see, however, are devout American Christians with an Old American ancestral memory and American Jews with an Eastern European ancestral memory looking at the same thing and taking away vastly different interpretations of what a dramatization of the Passion means to them.

It seems to me that, when American Protestant Bible Belters see the Passion, they think, "This is what Christ had to suffer because of my sins. I killed Christ."

It seems to me that, when American Jews see the Passion, they think, "Aaaarrrrgghhhh!! Run for the hills! The Russian Christian peasants are watching a Passion Play that blames the Jews for killing Christ so the pogrom can't be far behind!"

************************************

I am not a Protestant but, by flipping through the cable channels, I have seen that the most fervently pro-Israel media in America today is the "Christian" cable station. They may have their religious reasons but they truly belive that the Jewish people are God's special people and that an enemy of the Jews is an enemy of God.

That may be totally at odds with the experience that an Ashkenazi's grandfather may have had back in Eastern Europe where pogroms were the national sport but that is the reality of Bible Belt Protestant America.

For that reason, it is my belief that Left-wing Ashkenazi Jews have done America and the Jewish people as a whole absolutely no good by bringing and nurturing their Eastern European political baggage to America.

It is my belief that Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews romanticize Communism because Communism was the political force that was going to overthrow the hated Czar and grandpa emmigrated to America before the family could actually experience Communism's evils like we Catholic and "Jewban" Cuban Americans did.

It is my belief that Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews see a Republican and they never get past the superficial labels of "Left" vs. "Right" as if European political labels coined during the French Revolution meant the same things across centuries and across the Old and New Worlds. So therefore, a Republican is "Right", as the Nazis allegedly were "Right", so voting Republican is is like voting to send Anne Frank to the gas chamber.

It is my belief that Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews see American Protestant Bible Belt Christians who takes their religion very seriously and they automatically see a mob of Eastern European peasants ready to get out their pitchforks and torches for the monthly pogrom.

It is my belief that Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews see America as if it were Czarist Russia or Czarist Poland or as if it were Nazi Germany and reflexive attack anything labeled "Right", "Christian" or "Conservative"......in short, they attack the traditional values of Old America when it was precisely those values that created the America that saved then from the revages of the Old World.

If Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews ever see the day that the values of Old America have been destroyed, they may be shocked to find an America much like the Eastern and Central Europe that great-grandfather escaped from. They may find that Politically Incorrect no longer means "practicing Christian" but maybe now means "Jew, either practicing or secular" as Political Correctness changes to be in harmony with "sophisticated" Europe and with militant Blacks and MEChA types.

If Left-wing Ashkenzi Jews ever see the day that the values of Old America have been destroyed, they will miss those American Bible Belt Protestants that believed those silly, superstitious ideas that God had made the Jews a special people and that an enemy of the Jewish people was an enemy of God.

************************************

What is truly ironic is that in Germany, a nation with a long history of anti-Semistism just below the surface, secular Jews kept a low profile lest they offend. However, in Bible Belt Protestant America, that has no such tradition, professional victims such as Abe Foxman make a living educating America to Eastern European Semitic concepts that Protestant America never had.

By treating Bible Belt American Protestants as if they were Cazrist Russian peasant getting ready for a pogrom, the Abe Foxman's are attacking the very core of Old American values, their deeply held religious beliefs, and creating conflict and resentment where there was none.

Most dangerously, however, the Abe Foxmans are educating an entire new generation of possible anti-Semite in the Eastern European "the Jews killed Christ" dogma that American Christians never embraced.

Thanks to our public school system, we now live in a country where a large percentage of high school seniors can not find Vietnam on a world map and have a hard time trying to remember who the U.S. fought in World War II.

However, thanks to the Abe Foxmans, the old Eastern European "Jews killed Christ" libel has been advertised on every news channel and newspaper for the past two months coast to coast and around the world.

Abe Foxman has been more succesful in publicizing old and mostly forgotten anti-Semitic poison in the last two months than the "Potocol of the Elders of Zion" has in the last 60 years.

You have to wonder if he considers that unemployment insurance.

[redhead]

"several people who called 9NEWS to report the damage said that they blamed Mel Gibson’s movie A novel method of reporting a crime."

If I was a def...er, detective, I'd say this: "Looks like the perps made the calls themselves." No surprises here...

[churchillbuff]

But the vandilism is not a joke.

No it isn't - - but what has people cracking sarcasms is the wild accusation, without any proof, that "The Passion" is to blame. This is an accusation founded in bigotry, so it naturally inspires some defensiveness on the part of the targets of that bigotry - ie believing christians. Somehow it gets forgotten that the vast majority of the US and Brit soldiers who died fighting Nazis were christians, so the idea that christians have some affinity for swastikas is as loony as the ideas that Jews do.

[Polybius]

Sure seems that way.:-) I would hope not, but the fact that ADL lost that big law suit for defamation of a Denver couple has by BS detector going off.

Well, that was tongue in cheek on my part.

However, I do blame the Abe Foxmans for creating division and hatred where there was none before. I also blame them for educating an entire new generation of potential anit-Semites on the old and almost forgotten anti-Semitic dogmas of past centuries.

I treat the subject seriously in my Post 345 on this thread.

[churchillbuff]

>But to paraphrase Rabbi Daniel Lapin's book "America's Real War," if American Jews don't stop making irresponsible accusations of anti-semitism against American Christians, they're going to alienate the only friends they've got.<

Sorry, we cannot allow this to happen!--- THEN ASK JEWISH FOLKS TO STOP WITH SLAMMING GIBSON AND THE GOSPELS!!

[BlessedBeGod]

Prove this was done by someone who actually saw the movie.

[tubavil]

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2001565,00.html

[Mamzelle]

Rule out Meunchausen's Syndrome, first. The quick way the movie was blamed sure raises my suspicions--like part of a script.

[Yaelle]

Wow. You thought this out very carefully. I would have to agree. I have been trying to see what it was that the liberal Jews saw in communism, and you answered it for me. You are probably right.

For years I have tried to catalog why my brothers and sisters in Judaism choose liberalism / Democrat party still today, and you apparently are, too. I don't think it is STILL coming from an Eastern European mindset today, though, because some Chassidic Jews still have that mindset but are not always liberal. (In fact, it was an Orthodox rabbi who gave me writings showing that conservatism as practiced today is MORE the Torah way than today's liberalism.) And many non-eastern European ancestry Jews today are liberals. But you've got your finger on part of it.

Add to that the herd mentality seen in many minorities, including blacks, who are ostracised socially for daring to step outside the party line (literally!). Namecalling keeps all but the boldest in lockstep. I know this because I am one of the "bold ones" and it isn't easy to take the heat all the time for being a conservative Jew.

You are DEAD ON about Foxman and other screamers bringing down exactly what they are trying to avoid. Good post.

[Cold Heat]

devout American Christians with an Old American ancestral memory and American Jews with an Eastern European ancestral memory looking at the same thing and taking away vastly different interpretations

Yes, I agree with this up to a point and I concur that some are certainly in this camp.

But why do they?

Why use these reasons for attacking Christianity?

Explanations aside, it seems that while American Christians basked comfortably in the knowledge that the relationship with our Jewish brothers was solid and we were united on many fronts, our Jewish brothers and sisters had hidden disdain for Christians and were just not vocalizing it until now through the filter of the Gibson film.

Many Protestants have jumped into the fray to put themselves in the middle and try to bring some sense to the debate.

Looking down the road, as I do, I am not yet clear as to what the end result will be.

We need to proceed cautiously and try to refrain from adhominums and rhetoric of that era and I believe we have done so, but those on the other side have actually increased their use of same in response thus far.

There is much that can be lost if this continues and the loss will be paid disproportionately by our Jewish friends I fear.

[Cold Heat]

DENVER POST
June 5, 1992; Page 8B

Article ID: DNVR110390 -- 268 words
The Denver Post

Marilyn Van Derbur Atler and her husband Larry Atler received the Anti-Defamation League's Distinguished Community Service Award at the organization's annual meeting last night.

Also honored during the event at BMH Congregation were Holocaust survivors Zesa and Fanny Starr.

They were awarded the Aitz Chaim (Tree of Life) Award.

Van Derbur Atler was recognized for her part in establishing a program for adult survivors of incest at the Kempe National..............Snip//////gotta pay to get the rest....

[Cold Heat]

BTW, Fanny Starr is the survivor referred to by the article.

She apparently is legit.

[PleaseNoMore]

... I think I'll just stick with the Bible and the Mass.

You know, I respect your right and your decision NOT to see the film. However, I am reading your posts which are very unflattering towards the movie. How can you even form an opinion on the film without having seen it?

Surely, you can't. Also, if you do "stick with the bible" I am sure that you realize that His death was foretold in the OT scriptures and they are very detailed as to the violence He suffered. So, which violence is worse? That which you see or that which you read?

[babygene]

"Is the bible enough or not?"

Gibson film if from the bible. He didn't portray anything new. He added exactly zero. However the people of the time probably had a different perception of violence than we do today.

As I said, the reason people react so strongly to the violence In the movie, as opposed to other violence we are subjected to in the media today, is that this is personal. It's about someone we love. Other than that, it's not that violent by comparison with other movies.

[Polybius]

Yes, I agree with this up to a point and I concur that some are certainly in this camp. But why do they? Why use these reasons for attacking Christianity?

I believe that their Eastern European cultural memory reflexively equates a devout "Christian" with the East European "Christian" (in the loose sense of the word) mobs that devastated Jewish communities in Czarist Russia and Poland in the 19th and early 20th Century pogroms.

Their cultural and ancestral memory equates a non-secular "Christian" with :

These pogroms were not only tolerated but sometimes even encouraged by Czarist authorities.

It is no wonder then that Eastern European Jews were such a large component of the early Communist movement. In theory at least, Communism offered the overthrow of the hated Czarist regime, the destruction of the "Christian" religion whose clerics encouraged the pogroms and the establishment of a secular state with complete equality for Jews.

Of course, theory and practice are two different things. Over 90% of the Jews who fled the Czarist Russian pogroms ended up in the United States. Most of those came before the birth of the Soviet Union. They never saw the evils of the Communist system first hand.

So, the ancestral mind set becomes:

Czar = Bad.

Communism = Enemy of the Czar = Good.

Christians who take religion seriously = Pogroms = Dead Jews = Really Bad.

Secularism = No Christians = No Pogroms = Really Good.

Of course, the 21st Century American Bible Belt Protestant, who doesn't know a pogrom from a pierogi, is a totally dofferent animal from the 19th Century Russian "Christian" peasant burning down great-garndpa's village. However, the ancestral memory A.) Does not realize that or B.) Doesn't want to take any chances.

This, of course, does not apply to all American Jews as Yaelle pointed out.

Growing up Cuban American in Miami, I was exposed to quite a bit of Judaism. Our "Jewban" fellow Cubans hated Communism just as much as we Catholic Cubans did, were just as Conservative as we were and weren't threatened by our Catholicism.

Later on, while studying the history of our ancestral Spain, I became interested in the Sefardi Jewish diaspora into the Mediterranean. (I even learned Ladino, Yaelle. :-) See Post 58.)

The Sefardi, didn't have the Left-wing mind set and the Sefardi that came to America before the great Ashkenzi immigrations of the late 19th Century felt no threat from American Christianty.

So, there must be something else about the Ashkenazi that was different. It wasn't only Judasism that made them think the way they did. So, from my historical studies, I came up with my ancestral memory theory.

Now, the question I have for Yaelle is: What was it in your own particular Ashkenazi background that made you march to a different drummer and make you a Conservative?

[Seeing More Clearly Now]

Who is the "we" in which you include yourself and what hate crimes did you see staged?