Posted on 12/28/2024 6:39:57 PM PST by conservative98
There’s a raging debate on X right now about H1B visas and Vivek Ramaswamy is getting slammed for suggesting American culture is bad and thus can’t product high level talent that top tech companies want.
Let’s start back from the beginning:
THE HILL – Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, co-chairs of President-elect Trump’s new “Department of Government Efficiency,” are defending the tech industry’s reliance on foreign-born engineers as the incoming Trump administration prepares to crack down on immigration.
Musk and Ramaswamy both pointed to a lack of engineers stateside.
“The number of people who are super talented engineers AND super motivated in the USA is far too low,” Musk wrote in a Wednesday post on his social platform X.
When another user suggested the Tesla and SpaceX CEO was denying opportunities to Americans, Musk argued that the poster’s understanding of the situation was “upside-down and backwards.”
“OF COURSE my companies and I would prefer to hire Americans and we DO, as that is MUCH easier than going through the incredibly painful and slow work visa process,” the tech billionaire said. “HOWEVER, there is a dire shortage of extremely talented and motivated engineers in America.”
This is where Ramaswamy steps into it, blaming tv shows that promote ‘mediocrity’ on a culture that can’t product top talent:
The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation). A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture. Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH:
Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.
A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.
A culture that venerates Cory from “Boy Meets World,” or Zach & Slater over Screech in “Saved by the Bell,” or ‘Stefan’ over Steve Urkel in “Family Matters,” will not produce the best engineers.
(Fact: I know *multiple* sets of immigrant parents in the 90s who actively limited how much their kids could watch those TV shows precisely because they promoted mediocrity…and their kids went on to become wildly successful STEM graduates).
More movies like Whiplash, fewer reruns of “Friends.” More math tutoring, fewer sleepovers. More weekend science competitions, fewer Saturday morning cartoons. More books, less TV. More creating, less “chillin.” More extracurriculars, less “hanging out at the mall.”
Most normal American parents look skeptically at “those kinds of parents.” More normal American kids view such “those kinds of kids” with scorn. If you grow up aspiring to normalcy, normalcy is what you will achieve.
Now close your eyes & visualize which families you knew in the 90s (or even now) who raise their kids according to one model versus the other. Be brutally honest.
“Normalcy” doesn’t cut it in a hyper-competitive global market for technical talent. And if we pretend like it does, we’ll have our asses handed to us by China.
This can be our Sputnik moment. We’ve awaken from slumber before & we can do it again. Trump’s election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in America, but only if our culture fully wakes up. A culture that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy; excellence over mediocrity; nerdiness over conformity; hard work over laziness.
That’s the work we have cut out for us, rather than wallowing in victimhood & just wishing (or legislating) alternative hiring practices into existence. I’m confident we can do it.
This didn’t go over well with everyone…
Even Nikki Haley chimed in, saying there is nothing wrong with American culture…
The press secretary for DeSantis also suggested the problem isn’t American culture, but mass immigration and quoted Governor DeSantis:
Vivek isn’t wrong that we have a problem with American culture but it’s not what he suggests. It isn’t TV shows and movies that produce mediocrity. No, this has a lot to do with the breakdown of the family, with the inability or unwillingness of parents to push their children to excel academically instead of endlessly playing video games or sitting in front of a TV. Also many of our schools have big problems producing excellence as well. But I think it all starts with the breakdown of the family, ie. fatherless children and single mothers working multiple jobs to make ends meet while their children are at home doing whatever they want. And this is a product of the Godless left.
But that being said, I don’t know how much that really plays into this problem of top-level talent. It may have some effect, but I also agree with fact that mass immigration is a big culprit, in that it provides the cheap labor that companies want. This is a battle we’ve been fighting for decades, not just against the left, but against the Chamber of Commerce types in the Republican party for decades who want the left’s version of immigration so they can reap the benefits of cheap labor.
Look, I have never disagreed with merit-based immigration, especially when it comes to top level talent. We want the best and the brightest no matter where they are from as long as they are willing to assimilate. But we want it on our terms.
Let me quote the Great Mark Levin from over a decade ago:
"And what do we the people want? We want our border secured. And let me go even further. Let me make it absolutely clear to every foreigner outside this country.
This country belongs to us; it doesn’t belong to you. It doesn’t belong to the 7 billion other people all over the world.
You see the way it’s supposed to work is we decide who gets to come here. We decide the standards. We decide the requirements. We want to know who you are. We want to know what you’re going to – (ready for this one?) – contribute to this society, not take from this society.
You see because I want to make it very very clear to the left, to the media and even some ‘Repubicans’ and even some TV and radio hosts.
There’s nothing compassionate about the downfall of America! There’s nothing compassionate about the hollowing out of our society! There’s nothing compassionate about bankrupting our children and grandchildren, destroying our school system, destroying local law enforcement and hospitals, what’s been built up over 200 years.
It’s one thing to export our viewpoints, our economic ideas, our governing ideas. But it’s quite another to import the views, the culture and the destitution of the third world. Because that is national suicide. And any thinking person who is not playing politics, who’s not a demagogue, who’s not a propagandist, any thinking person regardless of party, ethnicity, or anything else knows I’m right!
This isn’t about voting as far as I’m concerned. This isn’t about pandering to this group or that group as far as I’m concerned. This is about preserving what’s left of this Republic."
HOWEVER, there is a dire shortage of extremely talented and motivated engineers in America.”
Operative word —— Motivated.
For the most part, these people are ill-suited to move back into the technical side of the industry.
Then you speak from ignorance. I’ve worked from home for nearly half my career, and I excelled at my job.
I go in when my physical presence is needed, but in this era of zoom, teams, etc., it is rarely needed.
I think the crowd here will say that they are not motivated BECAUSE of the insidious nature and abuses of the H1B program that undercuts them.
I have to disagree with Vivek. What he says is demonstrably false. He is a self serving glib salesman who has successfully channeled MAGA. Now he has betrayed himself by exposing his self interest. If the Indian culture is superior why are the majority of Indians living in poverty? Where are the inventions and excellence in India? Why are so many Indians wanting to come to the USA for poor wages, long hours and to live in group apartments?
Indian education system is poor, slipshod and the HB1 workers are renowned for poor work ethics and lack of basic knowledge.
A large % of HB1 workers are recruited for low skill jobs such as cashiers, truck drivers, low level clerks.
MAGA proponents should look very carefully at the lies Vivek is selling. It is easy to look at the HB1 database, as is being done on X, to show that the HB1 workers are not the upper % of talent but are just cheap workers who are stealing jobs from Americans while generating profit for employers.
Merit based legal immigration for talented individuals where there is a need that Americans cannot fulfill or for the top 0.1% of talent and creativity is a gain for America. The current HB1 visa process is an abuse of Americans and a denial of the American dream for Americans with technological qualifications. Who is not aware of large groups of American workers forced to train foreign workers before being fired? So much for nessasary and superior foreign workers.
Von Braun had some kind of ability to imagine and then design something, do the blueprints, help to get it built, and it just worked. This is extremely rare, and it was also said that Korolev had similar abilities, and he had much worse circumstances to work with.
I agree - WFH has nothing to do with this. There are other factors involved. I think we need to list those factors instead of making general statements.
Von Braun and team brought in the much-developed liquid rocket tech, which was way further along than Goddards.
You have it ass backwards. We had no WWII need for liquid fueled rockets and didn’t pursue them. Von Braun brought in the much developed V-2. The reason his was developed is that he was able to use Goddard’s work.
Beyond a small amount of work to get the US Army up to speed on the V2 they were useful, after that, not so much.
I think one thing that the Trump administration could do is impose a citizenship or permanent residency (Green Card) requirement for all US workers in sensitive tech fields. That would put an immediate stop to H1Bs. Perhaps someone with connections to the incoming administration should suggest this.
You have posted the same quote five times in this thread. Berkeley may churn out top notch computer science degrees, but the school is a cesspool of leftist wackadoodles.
Can you take your finger off the trigger and find another source? What does a professor from MIT say?
My own experience:
1 fellow from India, was a model of an immigrant seeking economic opportunity at the expense of others.
1 fellow from India, was a model of an immigrant seeking liberty, religious freedom (he was a Catholic), and economic opportunity (by devoting himself to his restaurant business).
Some fellows from India, were ruthlessly greedy and engaged in an accelerated waste of their capital assets. IOW, they run their property, plant, and equipment into the ground. That is also their impression of “what capitalists are supposed to do:” wreck the very assets upon which their economic opportunity depends(?!).
1 fellow from India, is presently a model of a guy pursuing economic opportunity, by applying himself to studying just about everything that he encounters. He follows the path: Let us collect as much money as we can, as fast as we can - he is a hunter, seeker, gatherer . . . at that.
Almost never, does the topic of liberty and what that requires of us, hit the surface. The Catholic: Liberty means a lot to him.
Meanwhile, on a trip across country, I was discourgaged when encountering fellows from India, who were scooping up American enterprises and squeezing the last bit of earnings power that remained . . . from the scrap-yards-to-be of:
- hotels
- gas stations
- truck stops.
Perhaps, if the number is low.
But other posters have provided admittedly anecdotal evidence of IT being replaced or displaced by H1Bs, including UC Berkeley.
Education in America is focused on the wrong things, so I can agree with him. We have been losing the brains race for a long time.
Motivation == $$$
Companies want motivation for less $.
Yeah, that is what the propaganda of the era claims. He was a celebrity chef with a few ideas. But his main value was cold war propaganda.
That's quite a revelation.
Being trained as an engineer teaches you how to think.
Yep, and getting back to the original point, that is learned on the job.
Clapping enthusiastically. Right on!
Sorry Charlie... The culture claptrap is true but not pertinent to the discussion. The reality is that there are Americans doing those jobs, better than the HB1 workers until the companies force those Americans to train their replacements and fire the Americans to save 15-25% of their salary.
The top talent in America rises to the top despite “culture” but because the universities have a high quota of foreign students (who generate more $ for the university) those achievers are shut out of the degree programs they are qualified for, would otherwise be admitted to and at which they would excel.
Follow the money trail and follow the self interest of Vivek and the pseudo MAGA tech types who sing the MGA song until they expose their self interest is their prime motivation.
“But in the meantime we need to encourage the best and brightest in the world to come to America.”
If that is how H1B is supposed to work, I would be more for it. But, currently, it is just a method to suppress wages.
If we were bringing in the best and brightest, they would be paid like the best and brightest, and not average or lower wages.
I think you have this backwards. I was admitted to a graduate STEM program despite my unimpressive academic record simply because I was a white American. The department head in my undergraduate program had told me this would be the case because engineering schools were desperate to attract American-born students.
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