Posted on 08/20/2024 12:30:12 PM PDT by whyilovetexas111
The M4 Carbine dates back to the Vietnam War when the Long-Range Reconnaissance Patrol soldiers needed a weapon that was compact and still semi-concealable so they could snoop deep into enemy territory without being seen. This was the CAR-15, the older brother of the M4. The M-16 was longer and cumbersome in close combat situations, so special operations personnel later preferred the smaller size of the M4, especially when they jumped out of airplanes.
The M4 then spread to light infantry units later in the 1990s. Some soldiers and marines still used the M-16A2 and A3 until the Second Gulf War and you can see photos of marines still using the M16A4 in combat as late as 2004.
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The prevalence of body armor has decreased the effectiveness of 5.56 ammunition.
Its a 150 grain bullet traveling at the same velocity as the 55 grain 5.56 bullet, so yeah.
SAPI plates defeat 7.62 rounds just the same unless they are AP rounds....which are rare as hell
If you know anything about Blackout though, you know its muzzle velocity is much slower than the 5.56 or the Fury 6.8mm. Blackout is great for close quarters and subsonic with a silencer, but it stretches just to get out to 300 yards. The bullet drop is just too much.
Agree with your experience wrt M4 and others. Ergonomically the AR15 style platform is tough to beat.
Advantages: small, handy, accurate, easy to carry. Disadvantages as someone else has already said, in the ammo. Not good past about 400 meters in terms of terminal energy and not good against body armor. Despite the clumsy terminology, it really is more carbine than battle rifle, as a certain retired Gunnery Sergeant used to tell me. Loudly.
I say give the new kid a chance. Lots to like about performance, lots not to like about how we obtain it. If I could make one change, it would not be in the rifle, it would be in the procurement process. Lowest bidder judged by non-combatants isn't the way to go. All IMHO, of course.
The XM7 is heavy as well, 9.84 pounds with suppressor.
There is a learning curve with a bullpup.
AR guys have trouble transitioning. If you start with a bull pup you can go between the two.
Plenty of anecdotal evidence that the 5.56 cartridge is way underpowered in the combat arena. Bad guys getting shot several times and still in the fight
They said the same thing about the 30-40 Krag in the Philippines.
Its proliferation of body armor that has changed the equation.
I had to laugh at that. I had an A2 in OIF I (03). The A4s we had in 04 were brand new, and issued to us in 04. LTI'd right before deployment. They sucked. We still had folks with those into 06/07, and I believe 07/08.
The major problem is they are prima donnas. In heavy sustained combat, and in grimy conditions (misting rain in a place full of sand), there isn't enough time to properly clean the weapon....the gas tube fouls, the bolt doesn't go all the way back, failure to eject, and they jam with a double feed.
Popping a few rounds on a patrol - the A4, M4 etc is fine. Day at the range - fine. Throw a couple hundred rounds down range, in grimy conditions - it's junk.
I would want something I can clean after the fight, not something I need to clean in the middle of one.
In one firefight during Phantom Fury, while caught in an ambush, and trying to fight our way to the next building, I had two jams requiring remedial action (actually taking a knee and stripping brass/rounds with a Leatherman). Others had similar experiences. Granted - it had misted rain, and we wer in sandy conditions. Prior to this point in the day, we had been in continuous sustained combat for many hours and our platoon had went almost complete Winchester three times. (we took over 50% casualties in 24hrs)...so this was a little extreme.
But, when it's your Marines' asses on the line, as well as your own - you want something that will handle extreme conditions.
Aside from that we were shooting guys several times....the meth and other drugs they were on - left them still in the fight even after 4-5rnds in the chest.
A good friend of mine blew out the gas tube on his M4 in Afghanistan and wound up with a bolt action rifle, while caught out in a remote area.
My next two deployments I had the M4. No major issues, a little easier to get out of vehicles, easier for CQB, etc - but I never trusted those weapons. I also never had to put them in the same conditions as in 04.
As with anything else, some folks love the M16/M4, some hate them. But, the problems of the CAR-15 variant weapons, identified in Vietnam, still remain some 50-60yrs later <- repeated jams, and no stopping power - it fires a souped up varmint round. It's time for something else.
If I were king for a day - I'd keep with the same principle of the M16/M249 - interchangeable ammo...and go with something 7.62x51 NATO that could use the same ammo from an M240 if needed. It would also prevent the need from sourcing another line of ammo (the 6.8) and the ammo is interchangeable with other NATO main battle rifles.
Bullpups are generally considered finicky.
“honed steel ?”
That is why every freedom loving American should own some.
Oh I agree completely. And one thing I don’t like about government forces going to this platform and round is that it will be harder to defend against if used on civilians. Thats something I hesitate to say out loud...oops.
This has a piston driven system, which probably explains some of the additional weight. The higher chamber pressures for the new round probably drive additional weight as well. Not sure if the almost 10 lb weight (with suppressor) includes the optics. If not, its a heavy beast. As much or more than a typical AR-10.
NFA and GCA need to be repealed ... or declared unconstitutional ... and BATF needs to be disbanded entirely. Let the IRS collect tax on booze and butts.
Effect on accuracy aside, I want to convert my ARs to piston ($$$). Being trained on the M14, have never liked the cruddiness of the bolt and bolt carrier of the DI AR.
Since i was trained that way, I always do a complete cleaning every range trip, and I find it onerous compared to a piston type rifle.
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