Posted on 03/20/2022 6:10:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee
To understand current events, you need to understand history, and to understand history, you need to study the maps. I've been doing this for a while, and now I have enough of them to make a Ukraine map study thread. Naturally, your opinion may differ, but maps are history frozen in time. In an important way, maps are the historical record.
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Russia purchased Crimea from the Ottoman Empire in the same manner that the USA purchased Alaska from Russia. (In gold, FWIW.)
If Russian Crimea has to be handed over to Ukraine, again, then for sure we have to give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians. Our annexation of Hawaii was done by brute military force, under the policy of "Manifest Destiny." We just outright stole Hawaii, because we wanted it due to its strategic location.
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By all means, the independent nation of Ukraine MUST be kept together, within its modern borders, which go all the way back in time to 1991!
Better to escalate to Nuclear World War Three, than to alter these ancient unchangeable historic borders.
/sarcasm
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How would America react if, during a national economic depression, in the future a stronger China formed an alliance with Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Latin America, and moved troops, tanks and missiles, country by country, closer to the borders of the USA? This is how Russia views NATO in the post-Soviet era.
You can scoff, and protest that NATO is purely a defensive alliance....but tell that to the Serbians, the Libyans, and the Afghans. And don't forget Kosovo, carved out of Serbia by NATO.
The Russians are now faced with American "defensive" ABMs in Poland and Romania. What is the difference between an ABM and a MRBM? Its launch angle, and its warhead.
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I realize they don't teach much history in American schools, but the "Great Patriotic War" map shown below is extremely real to Russians, and very much on their minds. The USSR came within a whisker of total defeat by Germany in 1942. If the Nazis had not been stopped at Stalingrad, Germany would have cut off the Soviet Union's oil supplies, and total defeat and racial extermination would have rapidly followed.
Ukraine joining NATO, with Article 5 guarantees, would mean that American, German and British troops, tanks and missiles would be staged directly against the heart of Russia. The NATO tanks would be just days from cutting off Russia's oil. Missiles would be bare minutes from Moscow. At least the German Nazis had to fight hard to get across Poland and Ukraine to get to Stalingrad.
Ukraine in NATO means that the next time, European military forces will already be located in an advanced attack position. Yes, NATO. Russians are very aware of history. Last time, the Germans were joined in their attack by French, "Viking," and Ukrainian SS divisions, as well as the Spanish Condor Legion, Romanians, Italians and other national military formations. So yes, in NATO, Russians see the potential for a reprise of 1942, but this time with NATO getting a head start by being pre-positioned in Ukraine.
You can laugh, you can scoff, but trust me, this is no laughing matter to the Russians.
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As shown in the last map, much of Ukraine's strategic importance is still related to energy transportation.
Why do you think Hunter Biden was paid millions of dollars to be on the board of a Ukrainian natural gas conglomerate? Why did the sons of John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, Mitt Romney and other American elites all have their snouts in the trough in Ukraine?
It's about controlling the distribution of energy from Russia to Europe, and mega billions of dollars are involved for the players in charge.
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So who believes that possible escalation to World War 3, with nukes involved, is a better solution than a national divorce in Ukraine?
Yugoslavia was created on the map from whole cloth by politicians in 1918 at the Versailles Conference, and it broke apart into separate nations during a bloody civil war in the 1990s, but at least nuclear weapons were not involved.
Czechoslovakia was also created by politicians in 1918, and after the fall of the Soviet Union it amicably divorced to become the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Ukraine, invented by V.I. Lenin as the Ukraine SSR within the Soviet Union around the same time as Versailles, is also an artificially invented political construct. The entire history of the current version of Ukraine as an independent nation goes back only to 1991, and the collapse of the USSR.
So which is a better solution? A national divorce, or risking World War 3, with nukes?
Hooboy. I lived during the cold war, and I know all about MAD. And if America or other nuclear armed countries get involved, there would be MAD, yes.
But remember Vietnam? America had lots of Cold War armaments when it stumbled into Vietnam, and Russia provided Vietnam with lots of conventional armaments, and being devious little bastards, they fought very effectively with those armaments. America was beaten, humiliated, and left.
Remember Afghanistan? The Soviet Union stumbled into Afghanistan, and guerilla fighters supplied by the US beat and humiliated them and chased them out of the country, despite all the Cold War armaments that they had then and still have.
That is what Ukraine is doing, only the West is not adequately supplying them. Give them MIGs and anti-aircraft batteries, Iron Dome and Patriot missile defenses, along with the other swag they’re getting, and wish them good hunting, but stay on the sidelines. They can enforce their own damned no-fly zone, and G-dspeed. Russia will be humiliated. It will serve them right.
“Living on open plains means constant invasion, and developing a very different military rationale than, say, Great Britain (Island nation) or the USA, a continental power guarded by oceans.”
That probably can be found in Halford MacKinder, “the founding father of geostrategy”.
The Heartland Theory in his Geographical Pivot of History. It certainly applies to Russia and Ukraine.
Well done, Sir! And yes, Logan’s short explanation is a keeper. We are being played by the criminals who have been using Ukraine as their money laundry and bribe factory.
“This is the sort of thing that used to appear on FR back in the day, that made it so powerful.”
“used to” being the operative words. Sadly.
Vietnam was on the doorstep of neither Russia nor the US. This matters.
John Mearsheimer "The Great Delusion: Liberal Dreams and International Realities"
The basic thesis is that in trying to propagate American liberalism [liberal democracy, not leftism per se] at gunpoint, we are undermining our own national culture, the national cultures of other countries and ultimately undermining the rights and liberties that are the core of American national culture [think Bush and the so-called Patriot Act].
Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin is a unique account of the mass slaughter of hapless civilians in Poland, Belarus, the Baltic States and Ukraine. Most tend to think of WWII atrocities in terms of the Holocaust and perhaps the Katyn Forest massacre. The Holocaust almost pales in comparison to true scale and context of the grotesque crimes against humanity perpetrated by both Hitler and Stalin as their influence seesawed back and forth over Eastern Europe. It is a tale of tragedy and atrocity that beggars the imagination that remains strong in in the minds of those who live there today. We here in modern America can scarcely conceive of the extent of the demonic savagery experienced by the people of these regions. Those horrors loom afresh not only for Eastern Europe, but for us here in America.
I've heard of God's Playground: A History of Poland, (Vol. 1 and 2) by Norman Davies, have you read it? How does it compare?
I have not run across that particular work, but I’ll definitely look into it.
Why be personal
If you believe in your information that much stand on it
Matt Bracken has a degree from university of Virginia and was a SEAL officer and has written a number of books and is fairy well known as a gun rights public advocate and other liberties you’d gain from were you informed
He’s effective enough he’s on the SPLC shit list
You’re out of line like most here who deride those who are skeptical of the war drum
I can vouch for Matt since I know him personally for 20 years and hope to see him next couple months in fact
You I don’t know but I’m lending you courtesy despite being rude
Folks can disagree on this
Your side seems divided into 3s
Progressive culture war engineers who view Putin as the anti Christ in that area due to his public views on their sacred cows like homosexuals and feminists amongst others
Neoconservatives for whom culture war is a bother and obstacle and who embrace nation building and open borders
Conservatives who think we are still fighting the Cold War and Putin is Stalin
I give the last a pass more or less
You see at one point Ukraine didn’t exist and was part of the Russian Empire, that means it’s cool to invade them for no reason today, including the non-Russian speaking parts, also NATO is very scary and you simply can’t have it on your borders, it’s ok to wreck cities to forstall that. Very informative.
Ergo?? What is 'right' and 'wrong' about the one nation's expansion and not the other's?
Reminds me of the Islamofascist argument that “Israel is an illegal country” that wasn’t founded until 1948, and its MODERN day borders didn’t even exist until 1967, therefore we should carve it up and chop up various pieces of it to make a new “Palestinian state”.
Heck, illegal aliens use the same argument when they’re caught illegally in California, Texas, Arizona, etc. Those places weren’t part of the ORIGINAL United States in the 1700s. America STOLE them from US! We’re just back in OUR homeland!
Worth repeating...and what they do teach is trash. For instance some school books now simply erase Russia from the map
It was on the doorstep of China. So was Korea. This matters, too, but the same dynamic applies. Proxy wars are always fought the same. Preferably with no direct involvement by a nuclear power. But when one does step in, as Russia did, they have to lose, they can lose, and they should lose, whether they’re right or wrong, and especially if they’re wrong.
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Fun with maps!
For the record, Russia might have a valid point grumbling about NATO expanding eastward and getting a bunch of landlocked central European countries to join them. I googled it and North Macedonia is nowhere near the Atlantic Ocean, so it was silly for NATO to even consider their membership application, let alone accept it in 2020. Ukraine joining NATO likewise wouldn't make sense from a geographic standpoint.
By the same token, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Luxembourg, Slovakia, and Turkey aren't anywhere near the "North Atlantic" either. I would be very pleased if NATO kicked Turkey out (they are certainly not "partners for peace"), but it might be a bit tricker with some of the other countries -- especially since a few on them on the above list were founding members of NATO.
Italy being in "NATO" doesn't really make sense, either, although I think technically they share a border with the Atlantic ocean.
It works BOTH ways though (just how the RATS can't see the double standard when they scream about Russian interference in our elections but didn't bat an eyelash over 0bama interfering in OTHER countries elections).
Trump is on record suggesting NATO could expand to include Brazil in South America ( https://nypost.com/2019/03/19/trump-suggests-brazil-could-join-nato/ ) Being in South America, Brazil isn't eligible to apply under Article 10 of NATO's charter, so they'd have to amend that if they wanted to accommodate Brazil.
And finally, from a geographic standpoint (looking the countries in the northern hemisphere that border the Atlantic Ocean): Ireland, Sweden, Greenland, The Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Cuba,the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Trinidad all SHOULD be in NATO, but haven't even been floated for membership (Ireland was originally touted by refused to join, though).
I'm being on half sarcastic though -- a lot of these "international organizations" have lost track and gone WAY beyond their original purpose.
Fun with maps!
For the record, Russia might have a valid point grumbling about NATO expanding eastward and getting a bunch of landlocked central European countries to join them. I googled it and North Macedonia is nowhere near the Atlantic Ocean, so it was silly for NATO to even consider their membership application, let alone accept it in 2020. Ukraine joining NATO likewise wouldn't make sense from a geographic standpoint.
By the same token, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Luxembourg, Slovakia, and Turkey aren't anywhere near the "North Atlantic" either. I would be very pleased if NATO kicked Turkey out (they are certainly not "partners for peace"), but it might be a bit trickier with some of the other countries -- especially since a few on them on the above list were founding members of NATO.
Italy being in "NATO" doesn't really make sense, either, although I think technically they share a border with the Atlantic ocean.
It works BOTH ways though (just how the RATS can't see the double standard when they scream about Russian interference in our elections but didn't bat an eyelash over 0bama interfering in OTHER countries elections).
Trump is on record suggesting NATO could expand to include Brazil in South America ( https://nypost.com/2019/03/19/trump-suggests-brazil-could-join-nato/ ) Being in South America, Brazil isn't eligible to apply under Article 10 of NATO's charter, so they'd have to amend that if they wanted to accommodate Brazil.
And finally, from a geographic standpoint (looking the countries in the northern hemisphere that border the Atlantic Ocean): Ireland, Sweden, Greenland, The Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Cuba,the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Trinidad all SHOULD be in NATO, but haven't even been floated for membership (Ireland & Sweden were originally touted, but refused to join, though).
I'm being only halfway sarcastic though -- a lot of these "international organizations" have lost track and gone WAY beyond their original purpose.
;-)
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