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Does The ATF Have a List of Guns that You Own?
Gun Owners of America ^ | Feb. 13, 2020 | Alan M. Rice

Posted on 04/17/2021 2:44:40 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo

Federal law and ATF regulations require a licensed firearms dealer (an FFL holder) to record the date a firearm was received, the date of receipt, and the name and address or the name and license number (FFL number) of the person (or corporation) from whom the firearm was received. The dealer must also record the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any) and the model, serial number, type and caliber or gauge.

Then, when a firearm is disposed of, for any reason, a dealer is required to record the disposition: showing the date of sale or other disposition– gift, loan or testing (anytime a gun leaves the licensed premises it must be logged out of the bound book) and the name and address or the name and license number (FFL number if a dealer) of the person (or corporation) to whom the firearm was transferred. If to a non-FFL holder, there will also be a completed form 4473 in the dealer’s records and the information will include the person’s full legal name and address, NICS approval code and make, model and caliber.

These requirements have been in place since at least 1968 and dealers must make their records available for ATF inspection during business hours — and no warrant is required. The law prohibits ATF from making complete copies of dealer’s records which could be used to create a registry of guns and gun owners.

Now that I’ve explained the law, I want to explain how computer technology is causing a problem for gun buyers.

While attending the SHOT Show, I learned about a software package that makes dealer record keeping easier.

The software allows dealers to keep an electronic bound book. It is an online package and the dealer pays a monthly fee based upon the number of transactions. When the software is being used, the screen resembles a bound book. The software has spell check and prevents misspelling of names such as Glock (Gloc) or SCCY (SKKY). And because all of the information is typed on a screen, it makes it easy for those who have poor quality handwriting to keep legible records that can then be made into a PDF which, when printed, looks like a traditional printed “bound book.”

Software, making daily tasks easier… what could possibly go wrong?

Plenty!

When speaking with the software vendors, I specifically asked how does ATF conduct compliance inspections of dealers who are using this software package. I was given a demonstration and shown how the software exports the data (guns and gun buyers names and addresses) into either a PDF that resembles an old-fashioned bound book or a Comma Separated Values (CSV) file that can be opened in Microsoft Excel.

I was told that this “feature” makes a compliance check easy because the dealer simply exports the CSV file to a thumb drive and the ATF leaves with the data. I was told that ATF analyzes the data away from the FFL’s premises. If there are any discrepancies or problems the gun dealer is notified and usually given an opportunity to correct the errors.

When dealing with compliance with government rules, many people do what is easy. That’s why so many file their US form 1040 tax return electronically, even though experts claim that increases the likelihood of an audit. I wasn’t surprised when the software vendor told me how well-received their application has been. Especially since it makes things easy, and ATF is not on dealer’s premises for more than a few minutes.

I accept that it is bad for business to have ATF personnel hanging around. This scheme is a danger, and allows ATF to easily create a gun registry — in violation of 18 USC 926 (a)(3). We have no way to know if a registry is actually being created and if the ATF is or is not destroying these records at the conclusion of the compliance check. One might argue they’re not, because GOA has received reports of ATF demanding copies of entire (paper) bound books. That is bad, but at least with paper, the data still needs to be converted to an electronic format to be of any real use. However, a CSV file that can be searched in MS Excel is of significant value to a government that wishes to track gun owners.

How do you feel about your personal information — linked to guns you own, by make, model and serial number — being put into the ATF’s hands? If you’re like me, you don’t like it, and you know that registration can and has led to confiscation. Not only in far away foreign lands but in US states like New York.

So what can you, the regular GOA Member and gun buyer do to protect yourself?

Ask. That’s right, ask your dealer how he keeps his or her records. Are they compiled in an old-fashioned bound book, or are they using one of these twenty-first century software packages?

GOA’s advice is to find a small, preferably home-based FFL — one who still keeps paper records — and transact exclusively with that FFL dealer. Take affirmative steps to protect yourself.


TOPICS: Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: 2a; atf; banglist
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To: Mr. Mojo; All
The Firearm Owner's Protection Act of 1986 was SUPPOSED to keep the feds from keeping a list of gun owners, and only licensed dealers keep the 4473s.

Here is the text:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/99/s49/text

61 posted on 04/17/2021 5:21:45 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe (The South will be in the right in the next war of Northern aggression.)
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To: Mr. Mojo

The ATF has a museum collection of violent guns it captured prior to, during or after the violent gun committed the violent crime.
Howsomever, the ATF does not have any collection of violent guns that have not committed any crimes, but it’s workin on it as we speak.


62 posted on 04/17/2021 5:24:37 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 (That`s 464 people per square foot! Is this corrrect?? It was NYC.)
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To: Gen.Blather

You forgot to add using services like Ancestry.com

Don’t have a suspect but have some blood/DNA/etc. Guess what? Send that stuff to a site like that and there’s a good chance it’ll put them in the ballpark.

The biggest issue they’re going to have , if confiscation is their plan is, who’s going to do it? Are there plenty of cops willing to? Are there plenty of federal agents who will do it? Yes. Are there members of the US military willing to do it? Yes. We’re inching toward a society, under CornPop and Harris, where the loyal members of the police and military apparatus are going to be taken care of, while everyone is painted as the enemy, ie..North Korea, Venezuela.

Even in France with the Yellow Vest protests. Are the cops completely blin to what is happening to their country. They should have been shoulder to shoulder with the Yellow Vests.


63 posted on 04/17/2021 5:32:25 PM PDT by qaz123
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To: ChildOfThe60s

Look what Bank of America was doing after 06Jan. They can find out what they want.


64 posted on 04/17/2021 5:34:12 PM PDT by qaz123
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To: hardspunned

I am.


65 posted on 04/17/2021 5:35:53 PM PDT by MachIV
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Disappearing ink for forms 4473, just fade away.


66 posted on 04/17/2021 6:10:44 PM PDT by ChuteTheMall (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post):)
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To: unread

They know everything you’ve ever purchased with a credit card.

Visa/Mastercard gives it to them.


67 posted on 04/17/2021 6:16:06 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Anti-racism looks suspiciously like racism.)
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To: Gen.Blather

Making you into a criminal so they can take your voting rights away is the plan.


Bingo!


68 posted on 04/17/2021 6:37:12 PM PDT by VTenigma (The Democrat party is the party of the mathematically challenged )
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To: MileHi

Oh well, they will have fun.

See my previous post this subject.


69 posted on 04/17/2021 6:41:11 PM PDT by Terry L Smith
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Thats true. I went to the local Calaveras county sheriff dept 12 years ago to find out the serial # on a gun I sold and they had it plus dozens of others I had bought throwout the prior decades.


70 posted on 04/17/2021 7:07:27 PM PDT by davidb56
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To: Bell Bouy II
"proof of that boating accident"

I sold all mine during the Clinton years, to a nice gentleman at a East Ft Worth carwash.

71 posted on 04/17/2021 7:10:22 PM PDT by Deaf Smith (When a Texan takes his chances, chances will be taken that's for sure.)
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To: Mr. Mojo

Our County Sheriff was once approached by the feds and asked for copies of concealed carry permits. He went public and said he would destroy them before he would turn them over. That was a few years back, I miss that Sheriff.


72 posted on 04/17/2021 7:16:19 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Biden/Harris - illegitimate and everyone knows it.)
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To: neefer

That’s my thoughts. If anyone ever shows up at your door looking to confiscate your firearms, the Second Amendment isn’t the only one that has just been nullified. You have just lost ALL of them. And, just like in the old Soviet state, even if you surrendered everything you had, they’d still dispose of you, so they could “be sure”. Might as well die in a warm pile of spent brass if that day ever comes.


73 posted on 04/17/2021 7:21:19 PM PDT by Quickgun (I got here kicking,screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I can go out that way if I have to)
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To: Quickgun

Amen.


74 posted on 04/17/2021 7:29:43 PM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: Quickgun
Might as well die in a warm pile of spent brass if that day ever comes.

I'm old. Dying doesn't scare me anymore. I'd rather be dead than witness what's happening to our once great Republic.
75 posted on 04/17/2021 7:39:54 PM PDT by neefer (Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run.)
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To: old curmudgeon

Yep. Don’t recall was Hillary Rotten’s get out of jail phrase. Don’t forget those word. I DONT RECALL. 100 times.


76 posted on 04/17/2021 7:41:02 PM PDT by wgmalabama (Tag line for rent. )
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To: Mr. Mojo

First rule of Gun club don’t talk about Gun club


77 posted on 04/17/2021 8:15:19 PM PDT by al baby (Hi Mom Hi Dad)
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To: Mr. Mojo
The FFL dealer is required to record all information from the Form 4473 into a "bound-book", called an "Acquisition and Disposition Log”.[6] The dealer must keep the Form 4473 on file for at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log book to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business.

Disposition includes submission of those records to the ATF National Tracing Center (ATF-NTC). Submission of these records will allow ATF to more effectively trace crime guns. The NTC requests that FFL licensees enclose a copy of the Active FFL and appropriately indicate that the records are over 20 years old. Records are to be sent to ATF, Out of Business Records Center, (OOBRC), 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405.

Before 1991, ATF kept the Out-of-Business records in paper hard copy filed at the Out-of-Business Records Center. In 1991, they began a major project to microfilm the paper records and destroy the hard copy. This project not only included the licensee's "Bound Book" (Acquisition/Disposition records), but also every ATF Form 4473, which contains name, address, height, weight, race, date of birth, place of birth, and driver's license number (or other ID). (GAO Report T-GGD-96-104, 04/25/96)

In 1992, ATF began creating a computerized "index" (based on firearm serial number and dealer license number) to the microfilmed Out-of-Business records. Data was originally captured on minicomputers and transferred to a mainframe computer database. The retrieval system, called "CARS" (Computer Assisted Retrieval System), was disclosed in a 1995 letter to Tanya K. Metaksa of the NRA. By 2000, ATF revealed they had indexed 100 million such records, with over 300 million additional records scheduled to be added over the following two years. (Commerce in Firearms, ATF, 2000) Over 400 million firearm transaction records were to be indexed by 2002 – about twice the total estimated number of firearms in the United States at that time.

According to gun rights advocates, which have long opposed any centralized, searchable registry of firearms sales, and notwithstanding the conclusions of the Government Accounting Office in 1996 that this system complied with legislative restrictions, this combination of automated and manual retrieval of individual sales records is a de facto system of registration of firearms, firearm owners and firearm transaction specifically prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a), i.e., the FOPA of 1986.

By March, 2004, ATF acknowledged the existence of their advanced automated Microfilm Retrieval System (MRS) containing information on 380 million firearms with an additional 1 million firearms added per month. This system had been enlarged from the previous system (CARS) to contain not only firearm serial numbers, but the manufacturer and importer as well. Additional data fields have been added to help identify specific firearms. (April Pattavina, 2005)

More recently (since at least 2005), ATF has been converting microfilmed dealer out-of-business records to "digital images". It is not clear whether this is a digitized "picture" file of the microfilm, or a digital record of each individual acquisition/disposition. However, guns rights advocates take the position that, regardless of the storage method, and whether access to the detail A/D record is automated or manual, this system is a system of registration of firearms, firearm owners and firearm transactions prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a).

In a paper presented to the United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research in Geneva, Switzerland, published in 2003, Gary L. Thomas, Chief, Firearms Programs Division, ATF, discussed the planned digitization of Out-of-Business dealer, importer, and manufacturer records, mentioned the projected cost, and noted it would not require any legislative or regulatory changes. Shortly thereafter, the digitization project appeared in the Congressional Appropriations Bill.

From the 2005 Appropriations Bill:

Conversion of Records. The conferees recognize the need for ATF to complete the conversion of tens of thousands of existing Federal firearms dealer out-of-business records from film to digital images at the ATF National Tracing Center. Once the out-of-business records are fully converted, search time for these records will be reduced significantly. The conference agreement includes $4,200,000 for the ATF to hire additional contract personnel to continue the conversion and integration of records.

However, according to guns rights advocates, Appropriations Bills since 1979 have prohibited centralizing these same records:

Provided, That no funds appropriated herein shall be available for salaries or administrative expenses in connection with consolidating or centralizing, within the Department of Justice, the records, or any portion thereof, of acquisition and disposition of firearms maintained by Federal firearms licensees:

In the 2008 Appropriations Bill, the Tiahrt Amendment further restricted the disclosure of data from the Firearms Tracing System.

The Tiahrt Amendment is a provision of the U.S. Department of Justice appropriations bill that prohibits the National Tracing Center of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation.[1] This precludes gun trace data from being used in academic research of gun use in crime.[1] Additionally, the law blocks any data legally released from being admissible in civil lawsuits against gun sellers or manufacturers.[1]

The Tiahrt Amendment was first added by Todd Tiahrt (after whom it is named) to the 2003 federal appropriations bill. It was signed into the law as part of this bill on February 20, 2003. It was subsequently broadened in October 2003 with the addition of two provisions banning the ATF from requiring gun dealers to inspect their firearm inventories and requiring the FBI to destroy background check data within 24 hours. In 2004, it was altered again, this time to limit access to gun trace data by government officials, and to ban the use of such data in firearms license revocations or civil lawsuits.

78 posted on 04/18/2021 12:10:41 AM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: Mr. Mojo

As I upgrade my weaponry. I give my old stuff to family and friends. The ATF may have a record of all I have bought (and yes at gun shows too!) But trading a Nosin and cash for a Mauser among friends is not out of the ordinary. Reporting all these transactions would be racist. I can’t even be expected to get an ID. How do I go about reporting gun sales? Taxes are also something pretty complicated. I think there is a race issue with taxes.


79 posted on 04/18/2021 12:30:33 AM PDT by Starstruck ( Since I'm old I don't whether I'm senile or brilliant. Or happily both.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

We can trust our federal overlords. They have our best interests in mind.


80 posted on 04/18/2021 12:49:11 AM PDT by Organic Panic (Democrats. Memories as short as Joe Biden's eyes.)
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