Posted on 01/26/2017 1:06:09 PM PST by Rebelbase
On 8 may 1945, Germany surrenders.WWII in Europe is over. Europe is divided in half. Soviet in the east, Allied in the West.
But Who would have won if war broke out between the Allied and Soviets if they decided to declare all out war against each other in May 1945?
Allied even prepared a battle plain: Operation Unthinkable was a code name of a plan of a conflict between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.
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If we were going to flip the Soviets from allies into enemies overnight, we would have needed the support of the Japanese, to keep the Soviet Army from moving from the Manchurian and Mongolian borders to the European theater. The Japanese, having seen how the Americans handled conquered people, and also knowing that the Americans were not going to be conquered in a final battle, could have decided on an armistice that would have allowed them to retain Manchukuo, Korea, and Formosa, give up the Philippines, Indochina, Burma, Jehol, and southern China, and concentrate its forces, buttressed by American supplies and materiel, on Mao’s forces in NW China, and the Soviets in what would become its eastern front. It would also free up the Manhattan Project to drop its nukes on the USSR, with the first two landing on industrial centers, and the third, if necessary, hitting the Kremlin, just as in actuality the first two hit remaining centers in Japan, with the third planned for Chiyoda-ku, obliterating the Imperial Palace.
The result in Asia would have been an Imperial “Greater Japan” allied with the US, Britain, and a nationalist China, a post-communist Russia, and a 1939-border Europe with democracies throughout. Moreover, without a Second World to compete with the First World, the history of the Third World would have been very different, but how that difference would have shown itself is, I think, unknowable.
Of the men in the Soviet Army on June 22, 1941, 4% were alive (/not some kind of casualty?) on May 8, 1945.
HA!!
We would have had 6 months to finish the war. If we went into December, January we would have had to face the weather.
From what I’ve read Stalin told his army that there were no innocent Germans and that they had free reign to do as they pleased.
>We would have had 6 months to finish the war. If we went into December, January we would have had to face the weather.
So would the Russians and this time without American food supplies.
I didn’t watch the video - yet.
But I am 100% confident that we’d have beaten them even without A-bombs.
First off, on May 8, we still had the Japanese as active enemies. If we had then “gone toe-to-toe with the Russkies” (quoting Strangelovian General Buck Turgeson), all we’d have needed to do was have 10%-15% of the Naval and air forces then engaged with Japan to stay more or less in place to bottle them up. They were already on their last legs, and had no offensive capacity or force projection to speak of. The rest of our forces could have been diverted to fighting the Soviets and later, if they still had a stomach for war once we beat the Soviets, we could’ve either starved Japan or A-bombed it into surrender.
Here are the facts - we had an untouched industrial base, fully geared up for war production. 50% of the world’s industrial production at that point was concentrated in the 7 states adjoining the Great Lakes. We had more ships in our Navy than the rest of the world combined (and the 2nd biggest Navy - the Brits - would have been on our side), including about 100 full- and pocket-sized carriers, and about a million Marines. The Soviets had just lost 26 million people, and no one in Eastern Europe was too keen on being ruled by Uncle Joe Stalin in Moscow. We had 80,000 aircraft between the AAF and the Navy, and if even 3/4 of them were trainers, that still leaves 20,000 combat aircraft. Additionally, we had started producing the M26 Pershing tank near the end of the war (2,000 by the end of 1945, and that’s with no real high priority after defeating Germany in early May), and reputedly the M26 (and its upgraded configuration as the M46 Patton tank) proved to be an overmatch for the T-34-85 (pretty much the best the Soviets had in 1945) in Korea a few years later.
We could have easily - with total air and naval superiority - landed a million guys in the Soviet Far East and taken over all of Siberia, or at least taken a lot of it and destroyed anything of value to the Soviets. Similarly in the Black Sea area - throw an entire Naval Task Force with a dozen divisions of Marines and Army into their underbelly, and take over or destroy their Caucausus oil fields. The rest of the Army and AAF in Europe would have been able to systematically cut off, starve and then annhilate the Red Army in Germany and Eastern Europe. All of those bombers that destroyed bridges, roads, tunnels, rail yards, munitions factories, ports, etc., etc. in Nazi-controlled Europe would simply have shifted their efforts to 1,000 miles or so East - cut off their logistics nearly entirely somewhere in the western USSR or the eastern parts of Poland, Hungary,Romania and Bulgaria.
No contest - if we’d have had the will to do so at the highest levels of government, and if our soldiers would have been willing to follow orders, we’d have effectively ruled the world...which would have made history a whole lot different (and not necessarily better, given what republics-turned-empire have a history of becoming).
I think the US, France & Britain would have withdrawn across the Rhine & Danube Rivers and sought mountainous & wooded terrain to defend. Use tactial airpower to knock out their rail lines (all Soviet locomotives were US-built allowing the Russians to focus on tank production)
Once the rail traffic stops & the US-built Dodge trucks get attrited, the Russians walk home.
>From what I’ve read Stalin told his army that there were no innocent Germans and that they had free reign to do as they pleased.
It’s really hard to track down what happened because both the Soviets and the allies covered up Russian war crimes after the war. What I’m reporting about the front line troops not doing most of the raping is from the words of the survivors. Sometimes they where warned to flee by Red Army front lines troops to avoid being raped by the units following them. To me it sounded like more up the political ladder one was in the Soviet Union the more likely one was to act like a criminal.
Listen to Hardcore History latest podcast that just came out. Dan Carlin just gave a great podcast on this
effin Rosenbergs.
“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” — Albert Einstein
We had the only atomic bombs.
Traitors had not yet slipped the Soviets the information on making them.
2. Traitors had not yet slipped the Soviets the information on making them.
(FALSE— traitors were passing information long before the bomb was completed... when Truman told Stalin “we have a new weapon”, Stalin shrugged his shoulders, he already know)
3. Soviets hadn’t yet built a bomb, even though they had a lot of information on how to build a bomb.
Maybe 10 million combat deaths; the 20 million figure for total Soviet dead is way old - and a product of Soviet propaganda. The actual figure, released after the USSR fell and the archives were opened up, was about 26 million. They wanted to hide their weakness, which was that they were utterly exhausted and bled white.
As I understand it a great deal of the Soviet army was moved from the Far East/Siberia to the Western front during the war. The Japanese were surprised how quickly Stalin got them back in the closing days of the war. As an aside the U.S. Navy would have quickly turned the Baltic into an Allied lake. Creating opportunities for multiple landings and fronts.
Then we move into Axis/Soviet territory and wipe them out for good by detroying St. Petersburg/Leningrad with a nuclear bomb. Bomb another city if we have to.
Then we establish bases in Russia so we would be in a better position to wipe out the leadership of China when they turn commie. I'm sure our leadership knew it was coming.
We would help rebuild and make those countries practice Constitutional Republicanism and establish trade necessary to their survival and prosperity. .
The End.
It wasn’t just food. Their best trucks were from Studebaker, Dodge, and GMC. Both light and medium tanks were supplied as well, augmenting the T-34 and other Russian built models.
From Wikipedia:
In total, the U.S. deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[38] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[39] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[40] and 1.75 million tons of food.[41]
If the Reuther brothers had kept their commie noses out of Europe following the days after the end of hostilities against Germany, and if General Patton hadn’t been assassinated by motor vehicle, we’d have finished what Hitler started.
Correct. I was just estimating casualties by the Red Army.
The actual numbers of civilians that starved, froze or were killed outright by German AND Russian Fighting forces were in the tens of millions.
>>>>>>America would lose slightly more than 400,000 soldiers (killed or missing) and almost no civilians during World War II and the USSR, depending on which historian you believe, would lose at least 11,000,000 soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian ...
Eisenhower Institute at Gettysburg College - WWII Soviet Experience
www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot
“I have always wanted to find a source that spoke about what level of dissatisfaction there was among Americans leading up to V-J day (if anyone knows any, please suggest them!)”
However, if it would have been a situation where it looked like the Russians tried to “Pearl Harbor” us, I’m thinking that the reaction would have been something like “well, let’s finish off that Stalin bastard, too, and then be done with war.”
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