Posted on 02/03/2016 10:16:01 AM PST by Jack Black
Many years ago I was a passenger in a car driven by my brother. He cut off a car leaving a gas station, the car followed us about 1/2 a mile to our destination. The occupant got out, ran up ripped open the drivers door and pulled my brother (a smallish 16 year old at the time) out of the car bodily. Turned out the fellow driving was a LEO (Harbor Master) in an unmarked car. He was also not in uniform. Shortly there after a marked police car showed up, with uniformed police officers.
The police wrote my brother a ticket for failure to yield to a police officer or some such. The ticket was thrown out by the DA when my brothers lawyer pointed out that in Michigan one is only required to stop for either an officer in a marked vehicle, or an officer in an unmarked vehicle in uniform. Mere flashing lights and guy in blue jeans is not sufficient (or was not at the time) to indicate to a driver that they were required to stop.
Now, look again at the video of the police ambush in Burns. In both the first stop, and the subsequent roadblock ambush. In the first stop the two vehicles pulling him over appear to be completely black with no markings. They have no lightbar, only a couple flashing lights behind the grill. We don't clearly see the people in the vehicles. Were they in recognizable uniforms of the local police or State Patrol? Or were they dressed all in "ninja black" perhaps with POLICE stenciled on the backs of their uniforms?
In the second stop you have three trucks blocking the road, none appear in the least bit to be law enforcement vehicles.
You know you are supposed to stop for vehicles marked like THIS:
And obey the lawful commands of people dressed like THIS:
First, lets look at the vehicles used in the initial stop: 
They have no visible police markings, do not have lightbars, and do not look like and typical unmarked police vehicles (such as the ubiquitous plain white Ford Crown Victoria). The only indicator of them having an official function are the one red and one blue flashing lights hidden in the grill.
Now lets go to the roadblock used to facilitate the ambush. there are No visible police logos in this picture, at the second stop:
I do not see any flat brimmed police hats.
Also, not the absence of road flares, safety signs, warning cones or any other device warning motorists to slow down. Any tow truck driver in the state would do a better job of marking a road closure than these guys did.
In summary it is not at all clear to me from looking at these pictures that the drivers of the target vehicles had an obligation to stop at either juncture.
Should LaVon's family choose to bring suit for his death I think they will have a good case based on the flagrant failure of the supposed law enforcement officers to properly identify themselves.
According to the survivors there were no commands given via PA at the first stop either.
If I were stopped on a rural highway in the middle of nowhere by two black SUV's with no markings, non-uniformed drivers, and given no identification or verbal commands I would probably drive away too.
The behavior of the US law enforcement in this respect is reminiscent of something you would see in a Latin American country, where police act as free-lance strong arm units, operate shadowy death squads, and use poorly marked roadblocks for nefarious purposes.
This is not in the tradition of American law enforcement.
This was not a pursuit following a crime (such as a bank robbery or something) where in emergency un-marked or civilian vehicles might be pressed into service. This was a highly planned operation that included air-support. Given that one can only assume that the choice of using all unmarked vehicles and non-uniformed officers was intentional.
Why? My surmise is that they hoped to engender exactly the response they got, to escalate what should have been a simple traffic stop into a "felon fleeing arrest". It certainly has many indicators of a pre-planned setup with malicious intent on the part of the agencies directing it.
Sharp said the passenger in the front of the truck, Ryan Payne, stuck his head and hands out of the window. He then said, "They fired at me." Payne exited with his hands up and surrendered, officials said.Both in this CNN interview and her prior statements she relates "Ryan Payne stuck his head and hands out of the window and was shot at".The FBI's statement does not mention any shot fired toward the truck this early in the standoff.
Sharp insisted she heard a shot and said that's why she didn't exit the vehicle immediately. For 3 minutes and 47 seconds, the FBI video shows the white truck idling in the road.
"LaVoy was talking to them. He was not aggressive in any way to them," said Sharp. "He said, 'We're going to talk to the sheriff. You need to leave us alone, back down.'"
The people in the truck were discussing what would happen if Finicum drove off, Sharp told CNN. The FBI said its agents and state troops gave verbal commands for the truck occupants to surrender.
LaVoy Finicum remained determined to try to see the sheriff on his own, said Sharp. "And then he said, 'Hey guys, I'm going to drive.'"
Shawna Cox told her to get down, Sharp said. "'They might shoot when he starts driving,'" she says Cox told her.
Minutes later, the truck encountered another roadblock and went into the snow bank.
The CNN interview jumps from "Hey guys I'm going to drive" to "minutes later the truck encountered another roadblock". (CNN is incorrect here. There was one roadblock.) What happened in between? In the CNN interview Sharp says that Cox told her to get down because the police "might shoot". This differs from her prior statement that the police did shoot when they left.
Which leaves exactly no one who was there - Victoria, Shawna, Ammon, Ryan Payne, the others detained or the LEOs - claiming that the truck was being fired on.
Don't you think someone who was there would be talking about such an important detail?
The CNN interview confirms that Payne had his hands and head out the window was shot at.
The CNN interview adds a small amount of information regarding conversation in the truck prior to leaving. On the video of the stop Finicum leaves immediately after clearly visible flashes. Those flashes support Sharp’s prior statements. The CNN interview jumps from “Hey guys I’m going to drive” to “minutes later the truck encountered another roadblock”.
> Which leaves exactly no one who was there - Victoria, Shawna, Ammon, Ryan Payne, the others detained or the LEOs - claiming that the truck was being fired on.
Victoria Sharp is the person claiming they were fired on. I have not heard or read anything from Shawna, Ammon, or Payne. (It may exist, I haven’t read or heard about it.)
Not exactly.
"Sharp said the passenger in the front of the truck, Ryan Payne, stuck his head and hands out of the window. He then said, "They fired at me." Payne exited with his hands up and surrendered, officials said.
According to her, Payne said he had been fired at, but he then got out of the truck and surrendered. If he thought they were trying to shoot him when he was in the truck, why would he exit and make himself an even easier target?
With Ammon and the others being taken into custody with no violence why would the LEOs be trying to kill those in LeVoy's truck?
No she isn't, at least in the more recent CNN interview.
QED
I can see why there would be a big rush to clear these people out seeing as there are only 555 Federal Wildlife Refuges.
Again, I went by her statements prior to the FBI video. I did not go by this CNN interview of her reviewing the FBI video.
In her prior statement she said Payne was shot at. In the CNN statement she says Payne says he was shot at.
Why did he get out of the truck? I don’t know. Ask him. Maybe there were dots on him.
Why would LEO fire at Payne? I don’t know. Ask them.
Why would LEO fire at the truck when they left? I don’t know. What are those flashes? As I said in 40 “Whether those flashes are muzzle flashes, flash bangs, or something else I do not know.” I still don’t know. Do you?
I went by her statements prior to the FBI video. I did not go by this CNN interview of her reviewing the FBI video.
If you have statements from Shawna, Ammon, or Payne, please add them to the conversation.
No, and I'm not trying to pretend that I do.
Given that we've heard from Ammon on other aspects of the event, and given that Victoria and Shawna aren't in custody and are free to talk, I have a hard time believing that no one involved would bring up the fact that the feds were firing on LeVoy's truck while it was just sitting there.
What we have is an 18 year old's description of events that's changed substantially, and the lack of confirmation by a fair number of adults who were involved in the event - on both sides.
We'll find out a lot more as information is released, but until then I'm just looking at the most straightforward explanation.
> Victoria and Shawna aren’t in custody and are free to talk, I have a hard time believing that no one involved would bring up the fact that the feds were firing on LeVoy’s truck while it was just sitting there.
Victoria says they were fired on.
> What we have is an 18 year old’s description of events that’s changed substantially,
I don’t think it’s changed substantially.
> and the lack of confirmation by a fair number of adults who were involved in the event
I agree.
> on both sides.
I expect to hear nothing from LEO.
> We’ll find out a lot more as information is released
Of course.
Boy, you guys are just like Whack-A-Mole, semimojo:
Shawna Cox:
"Ryan Payne stuck both his hands out the window and gunfire broke the mirror. He was hit in the wrist, Cox said, and pulled his arms back in the vehicle and said, of the police, 'they mean business.'"
Ray, these guys are just playing for time. They figure they can muddy the water enough to run out the clock.
Or probably already do...
Thanks for pointing out that Shawna Cox statement. It corroborates Victoria Sharp’s statements.
Two people have stated they were fired on and there are flashes visible on the video.
Two people have stated they were fired on and there are flashes visible on the video.
So, what's it gonna be, semimojo - disappear, or change the subject?
Easy now. Every one has an opinion. Collectively maybe we can figure out what went on.
Oh, come on!
Finicum's a wheelgun guy, and he's packing a 9 mil? Please!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but his right-side holster in the pictures is a wheelgun.
I wrote [on another thread]:
I'm not talking "revolution". I'm just pointing out the social media talkers who are delivering "the government line".In this case, the social media talkers are claiming that LaVoy Finicum DESERVED to get killed because he committed a felony by driving away from a "lawful stop".
Of course, when you bring up the fact that Finicum's truck was fired upon at "the lawful stop", the SM talkers suddenly change the subject, or disappear.
I just presume these guys are communicating behind the curtain. :)
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