These reports are so damning I am surprised they were released. One wound I had doubts about was Delgado’s head wound. Then I remembered his son said he had just walked around the corner and was shot. I suspect he may have been hit by a .223 that had struck the “corner” a glancing blow on the way in, deforming the bullet slightly but retaining enough velocity to do the damage it did. He apparently turned as he fell and was shot in the chest by an unmistakable .223 probably from the same shooter. I suspect this is more likely than “hit in the head with .12 ga slug.
Well, another piece of factual data that DOES NOT LOOK GOOD FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT that engaged in this Obama regime BATF planned “provocation operation” gone bad. The sole video recording that has been released so far caught the image of a person shot down (apparently in the back as he ran away). That video also caught law enforcement later coming to throw something (”throw down weapon”?) down to the ground next to the stationary fallen body. Can the Waco authorities and Obama regime DOJ drag this out until AFTER the 2016 election? They’ll try.
Well, I’m in before the flurry of leather lickers trying to deflect by posting irrelevant attacks on bikers in general.
marked for later ,,good assessment of the shooting, the .223 is measured on the lands and the 5.7x28 in the groves of the barrel ,they are the same bullet. I reload both.
EXTRACT:
“... this latest development can only further fuel conjecture that information is being withheld for reasons other than the potential to taint a jury pool. Among new concerns are why the ballistics tests, on what appears to be a local law enforcement matter, have been taken over by a federal agency. And why, after almost three months, ballistics testing has not yet been completed and reported — especially after ATF pledged this case was “being given top priority over other cases.” Watch this space.”
Highly Deformed = frangible bullet so as not to have over penetration
When I see a blatant error in specifics in the first few lines of an article, I tend to balk a bit. The 5.7 and 556 both have a bullet diameter of .224 nominal and a groove diameter of .218, the 5.7 is a 22 caliber as is the 556/223 Rem.
Okay, so on to the next issue. The velocity 556-(somewhat, if fired from a carbine 14.5 or 16 inch bbl, the MV of which would be more in the range of 2700-285, compared to the MV of a 20 inch bbl M16 A2/4 firing M855 ball (3150 fs). The carbine loses the ability to fragment ball bullets at about 90m, the rifle maintains that ability to about 200m. Of course, most LE would not be using mil ball ammo, but boutique LE ammo loaded with modern bonded dual metal ( gilding metal jacket, lead alloy core) or monometal gilding metal BTHPs of usually 55-77 grains. These bullets do not behave like ball FMJ, rather than penetrating a few inches, then yawing due to media change( the bullet is stabile in air, not flesh etc) then breaking or fragmenting into multiple parts, normally two core sections and fragments which penetrate to a few more inches-maybe 12-18” in gelatin, these LE or hunting bullets “mushroom” and stay oriented forward, destroying tissues via expansion. They likely would fragment if striking bone.
If fired from a “sniper” rifle, I expect the velocities to remain high-higher than from a 14.5/16 or 20 inch platform- common LE sniper rifles wear bbls from 20 to 26 inches in length, with each inch adding more velocity as powder burn/pressure efficiency increases. From high velocity platforms, expect more violent expansion/disruption of the bullet regardless of the construction.
If the rest of the article is correct, and wounds were found to be mainly small caliber/high velocity as expected from rifles of 22 caliber, then I very much doubt that bikers were wearing a bunch of M4 carbines/FnP90s and were wearing concealed stilts to inflict downward wound trajectories that magically disappeared after the bodies hit the floor and the police “secured” the scene. Not in this reality anyway.
When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not Zebras, unless you are in Africa......
Another slightly interesting finding. The dead were remarkably sober for bikers. One had marijuana on Toxicology and a bag of “leafy substance” in his pocket. One had Amphetamine which in a 40 year old I suspect was more likely Adderall than crystal.
” bullets were shaped like a swallow’s tail”
Is he talking about BTHP? Or trying to?
This case reminds me of an old book & movie. It gets curiouser and curiouser.
But wait.
Another coupe of names keep swirling in the back of my mind. David Koresh. Branch Davidians.
Still no one has stepped forward and taken responsibility for coming up with the plan for this cluster f**k. Just who was it that gave these killers their orders? Their Rules of Engagement? The assurance they would be protected and has so far made good on those assurances?
Just as we knew in advance that most of the dead were killed by LE (now it appears ALL were) we already know, at least in a general sense, the answers to all these questions. We may not know specifics but we have known all along what happened that day. In spite of disruptors like TG trying to blow smoke up our rear, we have known all along what happenned based on the reaction of the authorities. Even a cat doesn’t waste time covering up what is not crap.
Thanks to all for the knowledgeable opinions here (the knowledgeable kind are getting rare)
One thought that went through my mind is distrust of local police. I understand that most of my local police are good, but the stories stick and there are many.
Trust in local government has LONG BEEN A POSITION of conservatives. This is being destroyed.
My circle of trust is getting small................
More and more this is looking like the plan was to make it appear as if there was a big shootout between bikers and police.
First we had an attempted mass murder in Texas by ISIS followers which was promptly blamed on “right wing hate speech” when they insulted mad mo by drawing cartoons of him.
Then we’re supposed to have a big shootout between the “right wing extremist” bikers and police.
Just by coincidence all of this takes place just as the dems kick off their anti gun and right wing hate speech is what leads to violence campaigns.
Yep, it’s all just a coincidence.
It is possible that some of the shots were from Saturday Night Specials. Those generally don’t penetrate very well, however.
I’m going to add to the confusion a bit with a couple of observations...
It looks like folks here are generally thinking of FMJ (full metal jacket) bullets with a full copper jacket that is designed to NOT fragment or expand on impact. These rounds have deep penetration characteristics and will often go through a target if they don’t strike something solid. They may or may not tumble during penetration.
Self-defense and police handgun rounds usually employ JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullets that are designed to expand and open into multiple blades during penetration. They have a partial copper jacket on the base and an opening at the tip to enable expansion. These bullets are intended to remain inside the target and generally don’t fragment unless they strike a solid object. There are a few genuine fragmentation rounds available for handguns but they’re not common.
I noted that a couple of the autopsies mentioned codes stamped into the base of the bullets and I suspect those would be JHP rounds since they usually have a copper base as opposed to FMJs with an open lead base.
Entry wound diameters will be misleading and depend on the clothing penetrated, elasticity of the skin, the density of the underlying tissue, the overall profile of the bullet and the shape of the bullet nose. Don’t assume a 1/4” hole in the skin gurantees a 1/4” diameter bullet. It could easily be a larger round with a pointed profile that pushed the skin aside after the initial penetration.
The location, the behavior of authorities before, after and during the event and the results all point to a flash flag op. Luckily, it was done by Democrats and so far they’re failing badly.
I can’t believe people are still defending these idiot bikers. The autopsies are irrelevant. Of course some bikers were shot by cops. They were armed, committing felonies, and there were a lot of them! Here’s a list what the D.A. CAN PROVE as shown in the intent of seizure declaration:
On May 17, several members of the Cossacks and their support groups, the Bogatyrs and Scimitars, arrived an hour or more before the scheduled 1 p.m. meeting. They took over the patio area, which had been reserved for the COC&I meeting.
According to MANY SIGNED AFFIDAVITS FROM WITNESSES, they also had members inside the restaurant and along the perimeter of the parking lot, and members appeared to be posted as sentries.
VIDEOS from Twin Peaks and Don Carlos show several Cossacks reach under their vests and appear to adjust their weapons or check their weapons. They had handguns and knives as they walked around the patio, and officers said they also could see Bandidos, Machateros and Caballeros members standing along the perimeter of the parking lot. [Texas IS NOT an open-carry state, and this is NOT a shooting range - it’s a restaurant open to the general public. They are committing armed felonies at this point.]
According to MANY SIGNED AFFIDAVITS FROM WITNESSES another group of Bandidos arrived in the Twin Peaks parking lot, several Cossacks, Bogatyrs and Scimitars climbed over the patio railing and went toward the Bandidos. Several of the Cossacks pulled their weapons, including handguns, as they stood on the patio and exited the patio. [Texas IS NOT an open-carry state, and this is NOT a shooting range - it’s a restaurant open to the general public. They are committing armed felonies here also.]
MANY SIGNED AFFIDAVITS FROM WITNESSES also state a Bandido nearly struck a Cossack with his motorcycle in the parking lot. Members of both groups converged. Several Bandidos and Cossacks pulled out guns and knives, and shot and stabbed each other.
Of the 239 people who were detained after the shootout, more than 488 weapons - some illegal - were recovered from the crime scene, including 151 firearms.
This bears repeating: Of the 239 people who were detained after the shootout, more than 488 weapons - some illegal - were recovered from the crime scene, including 151 firearms.
Now, go ahead and try to tell me how these “law abiding citizens” were just there to have a friendly get-together, and the police had no cause for alarm. And, please don’t try to sell the story that this evidence is just all made up by the media and police. This comes straight out of the DA’s seizure filing, and he is not about to blow the whole case by citing evidence here that he cannot absolutely show.
Here’s a question for you: If a group of two hundred Black Panthers walked on to the premises of your local predominantly white restaurant while you were having lunch there with your family, took up strategic positions in the restaurant and parking lot, then pulled guns and started waving them around and firing them, what would you expect the police to do? Because according to the evidence so far, the police were legally justified in their actions at Twin Peaks.
One guy, Richard Kirschner, was shot three times, in the left hip, right inner/upper thigh, and left knee. He made it to the hospital. The coroner’s report calls the manner of death homicide and says it was the “result of gunshot wounds,” but doesn’t say exactly what killed him. No mention of blood loss or damage to major blood vessels, unless these are just supposed to be assumed.
I was at the shooting range today and got to try out a Tavor with an Eotech holographic sight. The first round put me in the 1” bullseye at 100 yds, despite failing vision that’s forced me to scope my rifles.
I’m now confident in saying that the Waco cops hit whatever they aimed at with their 12 or 13 rounds.
I also fired a bunch of 9mm, .357 mag and .380 ACP (9mm Kurz). All these rounds are essentially the same diameter, but each round put a slightly different hole in the paper targets.
The .357 punched clean holes at 7mm diameter, the .380 made holes from 4mm to 6mm with peripheral tearing and the 9mm produced consistent 6mm holes with less peripheral tearing than the .380.
Not scientific (too many undefined/uncontrolled variables) but I thought it might be amusing to share.