Posted on 07/10/2015 1:45:45 PM PDT by Elderberry
We have been watching the Waco Twin Peaks biker shootout with interest. From the outset, this mass arrest seemed to have some problems, and now that more information has come to light, the City of Waco has opened itself up to serious civil liability. Why? Because this is a textbook example of mass arrests without individual probable cause.
At the heart of every arrest, there must be probable cause. Now, of course, probable cause is a very low standard that can usually be met, but not likely in this case. From what is currently known, the Waco Police Department decided that (nearly) all of the bikers at the Waco Twin Peaks restaurant were guilty by association – in a typical act first, ask questions later fashion.
One attorney has coined the WPD’s actions as “fill-in-the-blank” warrants, which surely could not pass constitutional muster for all 177 arrestees… that is, unless all 177 arrestees were actually in an all out brawl. Apparently, the individuals had even been interviewed separately, so that in theory, Waco actually had the time to craft probable cause affidavits that would have applied to each individual.
Strip these people of their motorcycles and leather vests and this scene could easily have played out in a family reunion setting or a protest. Just because you have the same last name or happen to be attending a giant protest doesn’t automatically make your guilty by association with a few bad seeds. Now stick those people in jail for a month, add a first degree felony, and have several lose their jobs. That creates a recipe for disaster.
All 177 of these poeple are NOT "a gang of SELF-DESCRIBED OUTLAW motorcyclists".
That's just a pack of lies, and a smokescreen, put out by a crowd of self-serving gruberment lawyeiars.
The populace is getting mighty tired of the high-handed imperiousness of the ruling class, and the way they spend tax dollars like water on their Great Big Giant Large Criminal Jesters Machine.
I can think of two recent examples of laughable tax-money bonfires by the farce enlawment community:
The Eric Frein hunt, and the hunt for the New York escapees.
Seriously. The Founding Fathers would have been aghast at the blowing of millions of dollars over those two incidents, but the guys who spend tax dollars like drunken sailors didn't blink an eye at the total bill.
This Waco thing looks like it's shaping up to be from the same herd of animal.
I’m not making any claims of having “legal credentials” but no-one needs special credentials to sense when something is not right. In the absence of facts; go with your intuition.
As for something that “may or may not” have occurred, that is one’s opinion. Again, we do not need special privileges to give an opinion. Anyhow, what first caught my attention about this event was the $1,000,000 bail (8th amendment) set for the arrestees.
Members of these “groups”, Outlaws, Banditos, etc. self-describe themselves as the “baddest” 1% of all motorcyclists.
Outlaws is not what the government calls them. It’s what they proudly call themselves, complete with the 1% patch on their back. As an organization, they are committed to fund much of their expenses, and make lots of personal income by Meth production, transport and dealing.
They didn’t choose to name themselves “Outlaws” because they are really The Little Sisters of Charity in leather on their days off.
In order for these arrestees to get $ from the state, a jury would have to decide they deserve it.
Do you really think 12 Texans are going to vote to tax themselves to pay off self described Outlaw Motorcyclists?
Pllleeeeeze.
Case closed.
The $1,000,000 was WAY overreaching, but legally defensible.
If the State argued they were considering pursuing felony murder charges against a large number of these guys under a “murder by felonious conduct in consort with other’ theory, then even a No Bail status would be LEGALLY justified.
$1,000,000 bail in this case is ridiculous and abusive.
Is there anything that is not, even the remotest circumstance, legally defensible?
What many of us are most concerned with is not that avowed outlaws broke the law, it’s that there is a not remote possibility that law enforcers broke the law.
$1,000,000 bail in this case is ridiculous and abusive. At some point, yes, but in reality, had they initially gone for No Bail, on a potential murder in consort charge, they would have been on firm legal ground.
Please with the lawyer dust. You know exactly what happened. The detective Admitted that he used the same form and just changed the name. Do you really want to talk about how probable cause is suppose used for such incidents?
Of course he used the same form.
1st, such forms are often required to be used statewide or district wide to provide all the elements required by the law. That way, the courts do not have to spend hours debating the legality of each word in an arrest form.
You have seen the same all the time. When was the last time you saw a lease, hospital admission release for treatment and waiver, a rent-a-car contract, a real estate listing, contract or closing, or a traffic ticket that was not a fill-in-the-blank form, usually on 4-part NCR?
2d, If all the elements of the accused crime were the same, of course all the wordings on the forms were the same.
Imagine arresting 20, 100, or 177 rioters. Are the LEOs going to type out something different for each? In this case, the charge was engaging in organized crime. Would those charges stick? Possibly, but would most probably be plead WAY down to something such as Mopery in the Third Degree or Gazing With Intent To Gawk; $100 + time served and be gone.
But that is not the issue here. The question is the moving papers that were filed. Stop and think for a moment, if you are going to charge people with “organized” crime, by the very nature of the crime charged, “organization”, people working in consort toward the same criminal end, all the papers would HAVE to be the same, as supposedly all the actors were organized and doing the same criminal thing.
All that said, $1,000,000 bond; legal but stupid. The fill-in-the-blanks paperwork standard if not required.
Many of these defs may eventually walk, but the claim that the arrests were not righteous because of so-called “rubber stamp” paperwork is invalid.
From another article on this: First, it is now absolutely inarguable that at least 182 people were arrested on May 17 and that five of them were “unarrested” by 5:28 a.m. the next morning. In an early morning fax from Waco Detective Sam Key to lay Justice of the Peace “Pete” Peterson, Key says, “These are the five guys we ‘unarrested.’ Thanks for all your help.”
Yeah, sounds like the "grab" was legit. LOL! :)
If they erred on these 5 guys, they erred on others. After all, we're talking about the malicious, unaccountable incompetents who draw a paycheck from The State...
Is your professional opinion that reciting the elements of the crime is sufficient basis for establishing probable cause?
On appeal, probably 60/40 against. But remember PC is VERY loose.
That answer is not responsive to the question.
Actually, no. Most are pretty decent guys and gals who come when no other person will.
Lots in Reserves. Best long range spotter/shooter I ever had was a wildlife officer from Montana. Once said, “Hell, Major everything in my day job happens a mile away. Of course I’m good at this s**t!
Actually, yes. When The Order comes down to fill the boxcars, they'll just follow it.
"To protect their jobs, and preserve their pensions"
Next time you see someone hurt in a traffic accident, call Alex Jones.
Traffic accident injuries are a criminal justice matter? Who knew!
I thought with all your legal experience you would have had to be awake in Law School when they covered vehicular manslaughter.
Whooda known?
Are you avoiding a responsive answer to my question? As it is, you contend that the appellate courts are 40/60 in following the law.
Is your professional opinion that reciting the elements of the crime is sufficient basis for establishing probable cause?
For now, it's a hypothetical question, but it merits a direct answer.
My professional opinion is that as a matter of law, reciting the elements of the crime is insufficient basis for establishing probable cause.
Well, when the second responders from the Nanny State finally show up, their help will be a welcome addition to my prior efforts.
Hopefully, us Merkun peasants won't embrace the Nanny State like those in Great Britain have:
Car crash mother-of-two, 25, who lay critically ill next to her boyfriend's dead body for three days before police found her dies in hospital
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3158024/Woman-lay-critically-ill-three-days-crashed-car-police-dies.html
A woman who lay critically injured in a car wreck for three days next to her boyfriend's lifeless body because police failed to attend the scene when it was reported has died.
Lamara Bell, 25, was travelling with her partner John Yuill, 28, on the M9 near Bannockburn in Stirlingshire last Sunday when their Renault Clio veered off path.
Mr Yuill died instantly on impact while Miss Bell, a mother-of-two, was left critically injured.
Despite receiving a call reporting the incident on Sunday, Police Scotland did not attend the scene until a second passer-by reported it on Wednesday morning...
I guess they got the Brit peasants snowed about the nature of the the malicious, unaccountable incompetents who draw a paycheck from The State...
I can't even imagine "reporting an accident" and not manning up and jumping in to sort it out.
I have a problem with all this BS.
It’s like what can we find wrong with every Republican candidate for president, or every other person in the world.
Bill O’Reilly (another FOXnews hard-left communist newscaster [ /s ] covered this last week. Seems Conservatives can’t wait to find something wrong with everyone.
Mother Theresa? Bad eye makeup.
Albert Einstein/ Don’t tell anyone, but I heard he was a Jew.
Reagan? Just a RINO. Was once a Dem.
Goldwater? That Jewish problem again.
Franklin? Fat
Hamilton? A little dusky, you know
Washington? Bad teeth
When are we going to acknowledge the good most Conservatives do, instead of tearing them all down.
It’s like your post about the accident in the UK. Probably 99% of their work was fine.
Personally, I run about an 87% to an occasional 93% on a very good day. I screw up the rest of the time. Hell, even JimRob would admit FR goes down occasionally!
There was only one perfect man, and you know what they did to him!
Give ‘em a break.
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