Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DON’T have a degree in education

wordpress ^ | September 17, 2012 | Dan from Squirrel Hill

[grundle]

Dan from Squirrel Hill's Blog

Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DON’T have a degree in education

This is from the Wall St. Journal:

This month 3,700 recent college grads will begin Teach for America’s five-week boot camp, before heading off for two-year stints at the nation’s worst public schools.

Teach for America offers smart young people something even better than money – the chance to avoid the vast education bureaucracy. Participants need only pass academic muster and attend the summer training before entering a classroom. If they took the traditional route into teaching, they would have to endure years of “education” courses to be certified.

The American Federation of Teachers commonly derides Teach for America as a “band-aid.” One of its arguments is that the program only lasts two years, barely enough time, they say, to get a handle on managing a classroom. However, it turns out that two-thirds of its grads stay in the education field, sometimes as teachers, but also as principals or policy makers.

More importantly, it doesn’t matter that they are only in the classroom a short time, at least according to a recent Urban Institute study. Here’s the gist: “On average, high school students taught by TFA corps members performed significantly better on state-required end-of-course exams, especially in math and science, than peers taught by far more experienced instructors. The TFA teachers’ effect on student achievement in core classroom subjects was nearly three times the effect of teachers with three or more years of experience.

As always, whenever an alternative system of education does a better job of teaching than the traditional method, the teachers’ unions are against it, because they are afraid of competition.

Another interesting fact appears in this article by CBS news:

education majors… enter college with the lowest average SAT

It’s a tragedy that the dumbest college students are the ones who end up becoming teaches. In my opinion, the education major should be abolished.

[struggle]

B.A. in English
Almost have my M.A. in English.

I concur completely about M.Ed. and B.Ed teachers. They are most proficient when gabbing about educational theory during professional development meetings.

[BudgieRamone]

where do fine arts majors fall on that scale? i know many with degrees in fine arts that have very high IQ’s. Anecdotal, I know, but I am curious.

[PapaBear3625]

What the education establishment doesn’t want to hear, is that knowledge of subject matter and IQ of teacher matter more than how many “Ed” courses have been taken.

[Da Coyote]

An education degree.

For when you absolutely, positively cannot pass any other academic major.

[July4]

Today in America there are THOUSANDS of unemployed people who are marvelously qualified to teach math and science and will do so for reasonable pay and benefits.

Are you listening, Chicago, et al.?

[Vigilanteman]

What you described is basically how they teach math in Japan. Thin texts books. Lots of drills. Multiple ways to solve problems. My daughter took one of those standard tests in Japan and was pretty much average, just slightly below the 50th percentile. We moved to the United States next year, one of the better school districts in the state, she takes the same type of test and suddenly she's in the 92nd percentile for math.

Go figure.

Below the college level, the Japanese don't even divide trig, algebra and geometry into separate subjects. It is all one continuous flow. They even learn basic calculus in high school, not all that different than what I needed to earn a graduate degree in economics.

[JoeFromSidney]

Thems can, does.

Thems cain’t, teach.

And those who can't teach, teach teachers.

[US Navy Vet]

BLAME this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

[joe fonebone]

can someone explain to me why a person with a high school diploma cannot teach elementary school classes?

kindergarten... share your cookies, take a nap..

first grade.. 2+2=4, this is how you hold your pencil

second grade.. 2X2=4, here is a noun, this is how you spell words

third grade.. heat expands, cold contracts.... this is how you construct a sentence... this is how you make change at the store...

why the hell do you need a college degree to teach this stuff????

[353FMG]

Don’t you think that Neil had more “pull” than most engineers have?

Can you think of any school that would reject him? He could’ve found a job in pre-kindergarten if he wanted to.

[BuffaloJack]

EDUCATION?
I thought they got a degree in INDOCTRINATION.

[Gil4]

“A 10th grade ‘educator’ screwed me up on trig so bad...”

I had an excellent trig teacher in 11th grade. I occasionally paid attention, never did the homework, and got horrible grades, but I learned that damned unit circle.

When I took trig in college, I didn’t learn anything in that class (and neither did anyone else, from what I saw), but I just practiced the stuff I learned in high school and killed the curve for everyone else.

Trig is an easy class to screw up if you have a bad teacher (or don’t do the homework).

[GBA]

Most parents often do a better job of teaching than do "professional" teachers.

We have screwed up teaching and education and turned a calling into a union job with union work rules, benefits and predictable results.

Life Success now comes from overcoming the mandated mediocrity and sheep-like dependency that are the hallmarks of the professional educator's work, and not because of it.

A public school education is every citizen's built in excuse for failure. What did you learn in school today other than self esteem, son? "I learned, "It's not my fault!""

[LibertarianLiz]

That’s because people who are teachers have EDUCATION degress, not degrees in what they are teaching! This is a really stupid way to train teachers. The emphasis is all wrong. Teachers should have the majority of their training in the subject they are teaching with a just a FEW EDUCATION classes.

I'm pretty sure that what you are saying is somehow "rascist"; but, personally, I think it is logical. Which is why you will never find it in a public school. I have never understood this philosophy that if you have an "Education" degree, that means you can teach anything. It is ridiculous; yet, that is where we are today. No surprise as to the failure of schools when this is what they think. I remember talking to a woman who had been a teacher before she had kids and she was telling me that when she came in one year to get set up for that school year, she was told that she was doing the "special ed" class this year. She told them that she had no training in "special ed" and she was told that it was "her turn". This was years ago, and probably the first hint I had that something was wrong with the public schools. (My kids had Catholic education.)

There is a book by Thomas Sowell, can't remember the title, but, he stated that education would improve greatly if there were no such thing as an Education degree; but, that you needed to get a degree in something, and then the "teacher training" could be either a Masters program or a Certificate. I thought that made a lot of sense.

[LibertarianLiz]

I had an excellent trig teacher in 11th grade.

Both of my girls went to a Catholic HS. Both were in "Honors" programs which meant that they got some very good teachers (of course, one of them just retired and the other is getting up there). When they reached their junior year class in math, the teacher did not use a book at all. Someone on a Parent's Night asked him about that, and his response was that "he knew how to teach math at that grade level". He just had been doing it for so long that he knew what to do, didn't need a book, students didn't need a book; and, they all did fine on their SATs.

[LibertarianLiz]

We have screwed up teaching and education and turned a calling into a union job with union work rules, benefits and predictable results

Exactly! They are not "schools" they are "union shops".

[Gabz]

Which is why you will never find it in a public school.

Generalization such as this is no different than ASSUME.......

While it is true in many areas, it is not true in all areas - and most especially not in states where the public school teachers are not union. My daughter just started 9th grade, but is taking geometry because she took algebra in 8th grade - her math teachers for both courses have Masters in Math. Her Honor's English teacher has degrees in English and her Science teacher degrees in Science.

I spent 12 years in Catholic schools in NYC and my daughter is getting just as good an education in public school in VA as I did, and far superior in some areas.

[informavoracious]

“Teach for America” sounds a lot like “Obama for America.” Wonder what they teach in that boot camp.

[LibertarianLiz]

the public school teachers are not union

I believe that this thread was really about Union teachers and that those teachers who do not have an Education degree, but a degree in a subject (as your child's teachers do) is a much better way to go.

I live in a state (Washington) where the teachers are unionized. When I was looking at my eldest daughter starting school, I was appalled at the low scores that the children in my city were scoring. Reading at grade level was in the low 20 percentile, and math was around 19%. I had a very bright child who was already reading her books by age 4 (she was reading single words at 2). I felt it would be child abuse to put her into that school system. We did not have a lot of money; but, we took the hit so our children could get a decent education. When the educators are unionized, the entire system becomes about them, not about the children.

I'm happy that your children are able to get a good education from your area's public schools. But, I think, for the majority of people in the U.S., that is just not the case. Again, in the school district I'm in, they stopped the "Honors" program years ago after one of their "Honors" students showed up at a School Board meeting to explain that the school had simply not prepared her for college (and she was the Valedictorian of her class). She was an Indian-American and she was told that some students just aren't ready for the college experience. She was their top student, and she was told that obviously she was not ready. It was such b.s. Anyway, after that incident they ended up having to admit that their Honor Program was just like their regular program; but, the students were the bright students who didn't ever disrupt the class.

So, I am glad I did the Catholic school route, and my kids got a decent education. Our finances would not have taken such a hit if I felt that my kids would have been served well by the public schools; but, I just wasn't ready to take the chance after what I had been reading and observing about the schools in this area.

[FredZarguna]

Amazingly, you have the same experience and credentials that I have: BS Math, PhD Physics, two-time award winner as an outstanding Grad TA and one year post-Doc as a lecturer. I've been looking into teaching as a retirement option (I never used my PhD, and have been doing software development for 30+ years.)

I learned I would need to spend $30,000 at my 1970's Alma Mater, because, as I was told, "You might know math and physics, but you don't know how to teach math or physics." Well, yeah, I kinda do. And if results are any indication, you folks really don't.

At PSU, we had some (very limited -- 6 credits, I think) overlap in the sophomore level math courses with Math Ed majors. We loved 'em. They helped make for a great curve. But you shudder to think that those dumbasses are out there teaching kids math.

My daughter's math teacher in middle school actually sent a note home to me that said, "Your daughter says that you told her that 0/0 is not defined. That's only in algebra. In the rest of mathematics, 0 divided into anything is always zero."

WTF!?

The worst part is, the engineers and scientists I taught were often functional illiterates who went nuts when I corrected their grammar and spelling; but many of them actually spoke English more correctly than some of the things I've heard from putative "English teachers" at back-to-school nights over the last twenty years.