Posted on 02/16/2012 6:19:01 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Time to put on my myth busting cap again. This time, it looks like the USA is turning into Rome. But probably not. This is a comparison we almost always hear from hyperinflationists, those making ridiculous claims about the USA being bankrupt or those who are excessively worried about the influence of the government in the USA. And maybe some of this is justified to a certain degree. After all, it was largely government ineptitude that led to the decline of the Roman Empire.
Before any discussion about the Roman Empire begins, we should put things in perspective. The rise and fall of Rome was a spectacular historical progression. Although the fall of Rome is often described as some sort of event, the truth is that the rise and fall of Rome occurred over the course of 1,000 years with the final 200 years broadly being seen as the period of decline. The USA has only existed for 235 years and has only been a superpower for about 100 of those years. This doesn’t mean we have 765 years left to party, but some perspective is appropriate. The tendency to view the fall of Rome as an event and not a gradual progression is highly misleading.
There are, in my opinion, three major differences between the Roman Empire and the USA. They are:
Manifest Destiny is long gone….
The first point is one of the most important. Any empire that overextends itself is bound to run into any multitude of problems trying to maintain stability outside of their direct sphere of influence. At their peak, the Romans had conquered all of Eastern Europe, much of Western Europe, a large portion of northern Africa and much of the Middle East. This was no small feat back in the days before cars, phones and internet. Coordinating such a vast empire must have been a logistical nightmare. And that’s exactly what it proved to be. Not unlike the British Empire, this proved an impossible task as cultures clashed, coordination become increasingly difficult and authority from Rome diminished on the fringes.
Some people claim that the USA’s large military and policing of the world are somehow comparable to this. But the reality is that we haven’t colonized any part of the world since 1959 when Hawaii became the 50th state. It’s true that the USA went through a period of “manifest destiny” in which we essentially established what is now know as America, but those days are long gone. We’re not in the business of colonizing the world or ruling foreign lands. Yes, we are probably overextended on the military front and I am not sure why we often feel the need to police the world, but this is dramatically different than what the Roman Empire did through directly conquering and establishing their own leadership in other parts of the world and then attempting to maintain direct control over those regions.
Political Stability
The leading cause of the decline in the Roman Empire was political instability. The Roman Empire was actually only one period of Roman prosperity. Rome was many different styles of government over time with the Monarchy and then the Republic leading to its great rise and the Empire leading to its great decline. The Empire led to considerable division within the Empire itself with the leadership, at times, being distributed across many different Emperors. There was no real unification, but rather separate rulers as time went on. The Roman Empire was generally fragmented between East and West and this lack of unification led to instability as time went on.
The United States is in no way comparable to the Empire of disunity or rule by Emperors. We are and have always been a Constitutional Republic. This form of government has proven remarkably stable with time. And while we might see increasing disagreement among the various political parties within the USA, the foundation of our Republic is strong and stable. There is no first or second triumvirate, no Brutus stabbing Caesar in the back, no overthrow of one government for another….There is only a stable progression of leadership chosen by the people and for the people.
Economic Prowess
I know it’s not popular to cite the continuing economic dominance of the USA, but the reality of the matter is that the USA is still the dominant economic power throughout the world. Despite China’s incredible growth, the USA is still the largest economy in the world. Our GDP per capita is almost 6 times China’s. Nominal GDP is 23% of ALL world output. If you combined ALL of the BRIC nations you’d still have an economy smaller than the USA’s. We export more goods and services in the course of a year than the entire nominal GDP of Russia.
Now, clearly, the U.S. economy is in stall speed currently. I am not trying to downplay the obvious rut the economy is in. But let’s not be overly dramatic here. The USA is still comprised of incredibly innovative and productive corporations and a people who seek the very best living standards in the world. And while we might be a bit off track currently, I don’t see the trend in innovation and output collapsing any time soon. I know it’s not popular to be optimistic about the future of this country, but let’s maintain a little perspective here. The obvious direction from being #1 is becoming #2, but that doesn’t mean the American society is going to be overrun by vandals overnight to the point where it becomes a mere shadow of what it once was.
In short, the USA might be on decline (though I don’t really think so). But one thing we’re not is the Roman Empire. The comparisons are apples and oranges.
Worth repeating -- even if only for the responses I'll get claiming that it's not true and that we don't make anything anymore.
I would say that the correct analogy is the fall of the Roman REPUBLIC.
When the Republic was strong Rome was about duty and honor. To qualify for the lowest elected office, a candidate was required to have spent ten years in the legions. Since Rome was a small entity surrounded by (more?) powerful enemies, ten years would make any candidate a combat veteran - a man who had risked his life for Rome. The candidate wore a white toga to his examination by Roman leaders. His bow arm was bare, so they could see the battle scars won in Rome’s defense. Assuming the candidate was elected to Quaestor, and assuming he advanced to and executed each office in succession, he could be Consul in ten more years. The two Consuls were not only the highest office in the Roman government, each commanded half the armies of Rome. After a successful Consulship, one became Senator for life.
After the third Punic War, and the defeat of Philip V of Macedon, Rome had no rivals. All the wealth of the Ancient world (Mediterranean) poured into Rome, and she enjoyed untold wealth and splendor. These wealthy Romans adopted the philosophies of the conquered peoples (largely Greek) because duty and honor has less appeal than indolent opulence. In time, these Roman leaders were unwilling to risk their sons in the manner of the ancient Romans. Men were raised up to the highest levels based upon wealth and bribery, rather than merit. As the mix of Roman Senators/leaders became more corrupt, self-centered, and willing to sell out the interests of Rome for personal gain, the political situation grew less stable. The average citizen lost confidence in his government, and men such as Marius, Sulla, and Caesar established dictatorships in defiance of Roman law. Each dictator destabilized the system a little more, but the real issue lay with broken trust to the people.
In Julius Caesar, the people saw that a benevolent dictator who placed the interests of Rome first might provide better governance than a corrupt hoard of self-serving Senators. By the time the Civil Wars had raged for twenty years, with Rome’s enemies anticipating her rapid demise, Octavian/Augustus was largely welcomed as a Savior of Rome. Augustus was wise enough to keep much of the machinery of the Republic in place, (the part that functioned), and many Romans could live in the blissful delusion that the Republic still lived.
This is where the US is now, IMHO. The rule of law is being overthrown and the Constitution defeated. We will come out of it with something that resembles a Republic in form, but the actual power will reside in some vehicle other than ‘We the People’.
I think Christianity glued the Roman Empire together and let it last a few more years. This was part of Constantine’s motivation in establishing it. It also gave some cohesion to the Germans and, after Rome finally fell, to Europeans in general. Religion can be a powerful instrument in controlling the masses.
Probably not can also mean probably yes.
Your observations may have merit but let me ask if you see any parallels with this man’s observation.
"The Roman Republic fell, not because of the ambition of Caesar or Augustus, but because it had already long ceased to be in any real sense a republic at all.
When the sturdy Roman plebeian, who lived by his own labor, who voted without reward according to his own convictions, and who with his fellows formed in war the terrible Roman legion, had been changed into an idle creature who craved nothing in life save the gratification of a thirst for vapid excitement, who was fed by the state, and who directly or indirectly sold his vote to the highest bidder, then the end of the Republic was at hand, and nothing could save it.
The laws were the same as they had been, but the people behind the laws had changed, and so the laws counted for nothing.”
This observation is also applicable today.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus, Roman Senator and Historian (A.D. c.56 - c. 115)
Tacitus (c. 56/57-ca. 125) was a Roman orator and historian. In a life that spanned the reigns of the Flavian emperors and of Trajan and Hadrian, he played a part in the public life of Rome and became its greatest historian.
It seems to me that there are many similarities between The Third Reich and The Roman Empire.
It seems to me that there are many similarities between The Third Reich and The Roman Empire.
Obviously Rome, Britannia, and the USA may not share the exact route, but the overall direction is similar enough for them to all wind up at the same destination?
But the most obvious similarity the USA shares with Rome is the one this article conspicuously omits, immigration/emigration. In fact he seeks to spike the entire topic with one sentence:
"The obvious direction from being #1 is becoming #2, but that doesn’t mean the American society is going to be overrun by vandals overnight to the point where it becomes a mere shadow of what it once was."This despite the fact the Rome was "peacefully" overrun by migrating foreign tribes centuries before those same people rose up in arms to topple it. Despite the fact that Roman politicians, either ignored the invasion or even sold off Roman citizenship to those invaders for their own gain.
The author would have us close our eyes to the fact that that our USA is being similarly overrun by tribes of millions of illegals, while American politician either ignore the invasion or even sell off citizenship or alternative legal status, for their own gain.
Ha! On an historical scale of time, the massive invasion of the USA by illegals over the last 30 years is in fact "OVERNIGHT!"
"... to the point where it becomes a mere shadow of what it once was."
Ha! The magnitude of the numbers and the changes caused and soon to be caused by the tens of millions of illegals - multiplied many fold by those illegals who have been allowed to legalize and bring in other family and their anchor babies - is in fact "to a point" unheard of since the Barbarians overrun Rome.
“We may be more like the Roman Republic in the first century BCE.”
I agree - the problem is how to line up the timelines. I would suggest that we are post-Marius and pre-Sulla. still some distance from Caesar and Augustus.
As Adam Smith averred, “there’s a lot of ruin in a nation.”
Bread and Circuses / Welfare and Foodstamps - CHECK
Millitaries stretched too far - CHECK
Not protecting the Homeland against Foreign Demographic invasion = CHECK
Illegal Cheap Labor (slavery/migrant workers) favored isntead of Domestic Labor forces = CHECK
Dumbing down of the populace = CHECK
Currency that is constantly being devalued = CHECK
Crippling Debt due to the above = CHECK
Lack of Property Rights = CHECK
It took the Roman Empire several hundred years to decline, things move faster now, we will be lucky to make it to 2020 without a major SHTF moment.
Dreams of an Imperial coup d'état by the ambitious are nothing new in America. Ambitious psychopaths have always been watching for an opportunity to seize America. The difference is that never before has it been possible.
Considering the limitlessness of ambition and the enormity of the prize, can anyone wonder?
Unfortunately--millions of Americans simply cannot comprehend the grim reality that it really could happen.
(I am well aware of the differences between Cincinnatus and Washington, on the one hand, and Julius Caesar, Octavius, Adolf Hitler, et al., on the other.)
You are familiar with the phrase, "bread and circuses," aren't you? Of course when it first came into use, it was more likely articulated as, "panem et circenses."
Not like Rome... More like GREECE!
America is on the fast track to self destruction and the government is in the driver’s seat. Yes, Hussein is fiddling while we burn.
It should be pointed out that all of these people lived in the 1st century BC or AD except Commodus, and he was murdered in 192.
The height of the Empire is usually considered to be the 2nd century, though the Golden Age ended when Commodus came to the throne.
IOW, the decadence we associate with the fall of Rome mostly took place prior to its Golden Age and centuries before its Fall. (Whenever you date that.)
This is largely because we have fascinating historical records from this early period which are missing from most of the later days of the Empire. It's entirely likely there were equally interesting and evil characters in the 300s and 400s, but we have little information about them.
Ridiculous hyperbole. Proscriptions did not consist of compensated (however inadequately) taking of private property.
Proscription was a death sentence with no trial or appeal, rewards to your murderers, confiscation of all property and loss of citizenship for one's family (if they were lucky enough to not be included in the proscription).
We're a long way from that, at present.
Rome was abandoned by Constantine, who had the foresight to move the capital, the wealth, and the defenses to Constantinolple. Rome itself was nothing but a hollow shell after that. The Roman Empire didn’t really fall, it just moved. The fall of the empire actually occurred in the 1400s and the cause was the invention of the cannon, making Constantinople’s walls and defenses obsolete.
Actually, depending on which period we're talking about, service as any of the major magistrates (quaestor, praetor, consul, possibly others) meant appointment to the Senate.
The crux of decadence
We see in on the scale of the individual in shirt sleaves to shirt sleaves in three generations, in those raise in comfort who succumb to indolence and self-destruction, and in the self-serving, self-indulgent Counter-Culture Movement of the 1960s (the first overt explosion of American decadence) and the present "Occupy" movement, each nothing more than the self-indulgence of the over-indulged.
"In Julius Caesar, the people saw...a benevolent dictator"
Millions today place their hopes in a benevolent dictator or oligarchy. This is fundamental to Marxist theory, which has been embraced by The Left and appeals to millions in America and throughout the world.
Of course, the cognoscenti--and anyone with a functioning brain--realize that the benevolent part is a big problem, one which the mindless and the easily seduced take comfort in overlooking. The results of such folly are written in blood on every page of history: Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Commodus, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, et al.
Millions cannot learn the lessons of history and cannot comprehend the obvious. So the bloody pages of history continue to repeat themselves. Perhaps they always will.
"This is where the US is now"
With deep regret--I agree with you.
It goes to show that there are no exact historical parallels, but there are similarities.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.