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To: aruanan
The problem with miracles and faith is that the whole system is based on circular logic. People believe that certain men spoke with God's authority because they performed miracles. How do you know they really performed miracles? It says so in the Bible, which contains testimonies of their friends. How do you know the Bible is true? Well, you have to believe in it first, then you can see the truth. Uh huh.

The fact that humans have a) imagination, and b) a tendency to lie should be enough to alert anyone about swallowing a whole world view that then requires you to suppress your doubts and obey strangers.

71 posted on 12/30/2011 7:55:05 AM PST by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady
The problem with miracles and faith is that the whole system is based on circular logic.

You're projecting again, dear.

During Jesus's kanagroo court / trial, Peter (you know, Saint Peter, "The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail" and all that...that guy) was such a p*ssy that he wimped out *three* times when merely accused by a servant.

And that, despite the fact that ONE OF THE OTHER FREAKING DISCIPLES was openly in the courtyard already, warming his hands at the charcoal brazier.

Then the crucifixion...and within a couple o' months (at the Feast of Weeks) Peter openly gives a sermon in which three thousand people are converted.

Something happened to get his family jewels out of the lockbox.

And as for your line

It says so in the Bible, which contains testimonies of their friends.

you might bother to recall that during the Feast of Weeks, Jews from all over the world had congregated: therefore the belief was not merely limited to Peter's circle of friends.

And while we're at it, let's look at Peter. He was imprisoned at one point by Herod, and set free by an angel.

("Yeah, yeah," you're thinking, "more mythology.")

That's not the point here. The point is, when he went to where other believers were, the person who answered the door told everyone, and THEY didn't believe it : "It is his angel" they answered. So if even the eyewitnesses didn't accept it, whence comes your superstitious belief in autosuggestion as a universal solvent?)

The fact that humans have a) imagination, and b) a tendency to lie should be enough to alert anyone about swallowing a whole world view that then requires you to suppress your doubts and obey strangers.

Which explains (for example) the conversion of Saul of Tarsus to a T. /not>

Remember him? He was a Pharisee who was present for the gruesome death (by stoning, natch) of Stephen; and approved.

When *he* converted he was on a trip to get what amounted to a letter of marquee from the Jewish priests giving him authority to detain Christians and bring them back for trial (and, presumably, execution).

He wasn't one to fall for claptrap. As he pointed out later, he was an eyewitness to the risen Jesus. Hence his conversion. Reminds me of the phrase "knocked off one's high horse" or something: it'd be a neat etymological exercise to see if that phrase predates medieval chevaliers or not...

Your accusations should deal with the specifics of the matter at hand, rather than boilerplate generalizations applicable (if at all) to entirely different circumstances.

Cheers!

74 posted on 12/30/2011 8:17:47 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
The problem with miracles and faith is that the whole system is based on circular logic. People believe that certain men spoke with God's authority because they performed miracles. How do you know they really performed miracles? It says so in the Bible, which contains testimonies of their friends. How do you know the Bible is true? Well, you have to believe in it first, then you can see the truth. Uh huh.

The fact that humans have a) imagination, and b) a tendency to lie should be enough to alert anyone about swallowing a whole world view that then requires you to suppress your doubts and obey strangers.


Do you really have to offer something so jejune? It's like you copied and pasted it from the skeptics web ring from 1997. Is something like this all it takes for you to say, "Well, did away with that! Now I can relax comfortably"?
75 posted on 12/30/2011 8:18:50 AM PST by aruanan
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