Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.
On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.
I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.
Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.
Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,
We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.
That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!
It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.
There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,
I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.
There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.
The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.
Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.
I urge you to read on Christ’s commands.
I do and as I stated so many times prior to this, I was not saved because I was baptized.(in water)
Not to everybody.
Ok, so you were baptised through water in the Holy Spirit?
That's good. As Jesus said He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
Do read Jesus's other commands to repent, confess, believe, eucharist and endure to the end.
Who said anything about you being saved or not? I never did -- that's between you and your maker
however, Jesus Christ clearly stated that to be saved by His grace provided by His salvation
| 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.
you are answering me, so I am replying back to your post. simple.
Let’s talk about the other aspects where the BA philosophy, while nice, leaves out a lot. Let’s talk about endurance to the end — do you believe that? I mean, can one fall away into sin? Does God pre-destine folks to hell or not?
This teaching is clearly stated, for example, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, section 3 which says this: By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto eternal life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
What are your thoughts on this?
I do.
Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ...
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. ...
1Pe 3:21 ...(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)...
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Thanks for your reply, Metmom. I wish I could hear your story some day. I love every testimony I hear because they are all full of His miracles. No matter who we are or what we have done, the results of His work in us are the same to one extent or another, and proof of His grace. No doubt, we all know how dreadful we were before Him. Even in right and clean living, there’s no real, lasting peace and joy apart from Him.
Blessings, Metmom. And I will “see” you soon on another thread or at the end of this one if it’s not gone cold by the time I get caught up.
SC
Trisham. NO. Don’t be sorry for me! I have a grand life and could not ask for better. We all have our own trials to face, but with Him, we know that whether we make it through another a day or not is not the real issue. It’s great if I see another day, yes, for His will and purpose; but, it’s going to be grand when I don’t! :-) My life is great and I can say that the TN has not gotten the best of me yet, but has rather opened many doors. There is a blessing in everything if we choose to find it. In my case, I can say that I believe God has trusted me to endure things so that I may help others who may face the same problems. In one instance, the information about the disorder I have was related by a relative of mine to a grieving wife who awoke to the sound of shotgun shells hitting the floor one morning. Because of an unrelenting, horrifying agony that nothing would help, her husband was attempting to take his own life. My relative listened to her story about their desperate search for help for what ended up being the same disorder I have and which the medical community is ill-informed. She took the info to her husband’s doctor and he was treated for it. As far as I know, he still is doing well.
God bless you, Trisham, and thanks for your reply.
SC
Ok. But the question you asked me to answer, and didn't answer here, was:
Is it a sin to not be baptised?
Boatbums, you are too kind and you are so right that we are THE proof. When He changes us, it can’t be denied. That is the best proof of Him. It works from the inside to the outside to the world around us for His glory. It’s a change that only occurs when He has, out of His abundant mercy, touched our souls. Again, I don’t understand how He could love a person like me, but He does.
And what a joy!
My Best Always,
SC
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Thank you for your kind reply, Claire. :)
I hope others see this and gain heart and inspiration from it.
May God bless you.
trisham
| 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live. |
Christ as John 4:42 says is "the Savior of the world,",
Gods grace, in Jesus Christ has NOT predestined anyone to damnation. We are saved by grace alone through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Those who are going to hell are of their own choice, not God authoring evil.
on the contrary 1 Tim 2:3-4 tells us 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. -- not that all WILL be saved, but that God desires, i.e. freely offers salvation to all, those who accept Him and those who reject Him. He does all the saving, we just must accept or reject it under grace.
Thank you for your honest testimony, to the glory of God in Christ.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
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