Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.
On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.
I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.
Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.
Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,
We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.
That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!
It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.
There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,
I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.
There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.
The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.
Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.
Thank you. This is exactly my point. It's your make believe world. I guess you can make up the rules as you go along.
I consider myself to be an Orthodox Christian. I believe in God and I believe Orthodox Christianity best reflects what I believe God to be. I believe God is LOVE. I think Orthodox Christianity does an outstanding job of explaining what that LOVE is. I believe Orthodox Christianity best defines God because it doesn't stoop so low as to believe God created a Magic Book called the Bible that is the manual for what God wants us to know. I love the fact Christianity is NOT about a book. It's about a way we should treat each other based on an example given to us by this LOVE coming to us in the form of a man.
As for the rest of your post - it's the typical garbage one comes to expect form the so-called "born againers". More condescending crap from someone with half the brains of the person they are debating. You know, you folks are really nasty human beings. Each of your posts is full of personal attacks. You're just plain unpleasant, and I thank God I don't believe in some "Bahble believin" cult that reduces Christ to a few chapters in a magic book. That's obnoxious, and it belittles Christ. Shame on you.
Of course I do. But I also know that you were still grousing about the Bible which is not an atheist tome and it is neither mentioned in the title nor contained in the article. So stop grousing(unless you believe in it).
Basically, you're saying that your faith is based on fear... on blackmail. To look at it the other way, the only life you have, the only temporary passage of moments in which the elements that you comprise of, is somewhat self-aware, is wasted in delusion and superstition, ignoring this only precious time you have, in the futile expectation of a "better" one. That's not what some people are willing to waste their only lives for.
Besides, what is the reason for this deity to exact coerced "faith" in this "period of existence"? Since the "soul" is always sentient, why should "faith" be extracted through fear only when one is alive? This does not seem reasonable, in the least.
Interesting. So how were you informed about what is and is not orthodox? And how is the authority of your source for this information established? (IOW did God stoop down to use gossip to pass on the information? Or did someone use a Magic language to establish the orthodox? And even if the information is passed on in a Magic language, is it improper to write it down? Does that also mean we can't use hymnals or written notation? Maybe we're not supposed to sing, only hum! Wow! The possibilities seem endless!)
well spoken. orthodoxy has weathered many storms, many heresies before. It is sown in fertile, firm ground not like those which were sown on bare rock and blow with every breeze.
Exactly -- and yet they are the first to complain about "personal attacks" when one uses their tactics against them. Pompous pharisees
that reduces Christ to a few chapters in a magic book. That's obnoxious, and it belittles Christ. Shame on you. -- that's true, some even follow Jesse Duplantis who says
"With fierce prayers and determination to see my mother healed, I started talking to God. "What is going on here?! I'm praying! Dad's praying! Why isn't she healed? You cannot allow death to defeat me, God. You made a covenant with me through Jesus' blood! And that covenant says by His stripes we were healed! Where is that healing? If you break this covenant with me, you'll have to cease to be God! You must keep covenant with me. You must obey your Word!"They also reduce God to just a book, they reduce the Word of God to just the Written Word.
Instead of showing by example, instead of talking about what they believe, they attack -- have you ever considered that it may be because some outside orthodoxy can't believe what they believe?
You're a Moslem?? Ahh... well it all makes sense. No wonder you get along with the Goofy Prot cult people. I don't consider them to be Christians either. I believe the "Bahble worshippin" Goofy cults and Islam worship the same God of Magic Books. The Muslim/Goofy God is some supposedly perfectly written books dropped from the sky. In these Magic Books, Christ is reduced to a few chapters and takes a back seat to the rest of the Magic Book which trumps all else.to which you got a response in 2923
If you ask me, the God of Magic books that is represented by the Moslem/Goofy cults is actually the devil himself. You guys are buying into the devil's work - hook, line and sinker. The sick thing is - actively fighting against REAL Christians while vehemently defending the satanic God of Magic Books makes you guys satan's assistants. That's really bad, but there's time repent!!
By the way - when you call the Bible the "Word" of God, you're calling the Bible Jesus Christ. How stupid is that? The Bible is not Jesus Christ.
What an a*hole comment that is - but on par with any believer of the doctrines of demons.Christianity in many non-Christians opinion, "create idiots deliberately" -- because we believe that Jesus Christ is God, resurrected from the dead. This is terribly hard for many to fathom...
I'd explain it to you but a man without the Spirit is UNABLE to 'get it'. Imagine that - your church creates idiots deliberately. Not expecting a believer in doctrines of demons to
ah, now your pals were saying not to make this personal..
on the subject of the "Reformed God" vs. the "Apostolic God" - They aren't the same "God". That seems very clear to me. That "God told me to skin you alive" stuff may be just fine for the fringe Protestants and Muslims, but I want nothing to do with that "God". The overwhelming sadism churns my stomach.or
Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but I'm gonna dump all my faith in the bucket of the Jesus that wishes the folks nailing him to a cross be forgiven.
I trust God. I don’t trust a God that punishes those that don’t have faith in him. That is an evil God. I want nothing to do with that God. That God is not Christ. Followers of a religion that that has a God that punishes those that don’t believe in him are not Christiansor, to address James C Bennett's point
As an Orthodox Christian, I'm all for the acceptance of Jesus Christ. What I have a problem with is the condemnation of a little Hindu girl in India that hasn't accepted Christ because that's not how she was raised. She's a good little girl that knows of Jesus because she she.Then she dies in an accidental fire, and the "faith only" God sentences the little girl to suffer burning for eternity because she didn't believe in Jesus. That is evil. That is an evil God in my opinion. That is NOT love. That is NOT Christianity. That is a God that made a little girl he knew very well was going to follow the faith of her parents and then burns her forever for not believing in him.
There's no way anybody is ever going to convince me that that is not an evil God. That is why I want nothing to do with a "faith only" deity. I'd rather burn with that little girl that worship a God that evil.
I have a bunch of agnostic and atheist friends that don't worship Christ or God but they're very good people, and some of the most "Christian" people I have ever met. They are filled with compassion and love, and they do unto others as they would want done unto them. They just don't have the faith I was born with
The "faith only" God condemns these friends of mine. Why make these wonderful and loving yet skeptical people only to later torture their souls for eternity because they happen to hold the same skepticism he gave them? Is that not evil? Again it's the little boy burning ants with a magnifying glass in the hot afternoon sun. I'm not worshiping that "kid" and he has nothing to do with a Christ that asks that his murderers be forgiven.A God that demands "faith" for salvation yet hides himself from so many that would gladly worship him if he weren't so remote to them is evil.
One of my favorite things about Orthodox Christianity is it's refusal to believe it knows where or how the Holy Spirit works outside Orthodox Christianity. That's an honesty few religions possess. That's a God with endless possibilities of love. That's a God I can, and do worship.
This explains why orthodoxy could flourish despite there not being the Written Word in the New Testament yet.
The Written Word, being written in man's language is open to flawed interpretation as we witness, while in orthodoxy the interpretation of the Written Word is found. Hence in orthodoxy the worship is of the overall Word of God that is Christ, not just limited to the Written Word -- which is a part of the Word, but not the whole
Yes, that's what the sign says, boatbums, but you know very well that in practice the sing is ignored. We have evidence of that fact daily right on this thread. It's pointless to quote rules no one follows.
Interesting comment in response to After all, the rabbi is just as separated by time from the events in question as are the "born agains," and we know that Judaism has, ah, evolved a lot in its understanding of the biblical texts over the past 1800 years -
That's your opinion (maybe). Sarah will be scrutinized more than others. She has a target painted on her by the liberal media who will twist everything she says and try to scandalize even the smallest thing about her that will detract from the real issue. And her in-your-face attitude doesn't help in that regard because it's not constructive.
Injecting her (again) into the presidential race is scary and self-destructive, and I am not the only Republican who thinks that.
One of his own disciples did pretty much that, and he obliged.
That make sno sense whatsoever, boatbums.
Confucius say: always flush before you lift your toilet seat. :)
But let’s just say that your belief in Christ was real,....let’s say that you did repent and came to love Him and the things of God, His word, and His people.
What repentance? I was a an infant when someone decided I would Eastern Orthodox because my parents were, and their parents were, etc. all he way back some 900 year ago.
From as early as I can remember I was in church with my parents and simply accepted it as "normal". In Sunday schools they told us how it really was, they had all the answers I could come up with and that was it.
It took more than forty years of my life to ask an Orthodox priest a simple question and to follow up on his snotty answer "you need to read more." So, I did and discovered what I know today, what they didn't tell me in Sunday school.
This hangs from the belief that if you slip in any which way, you were never "saved" in the first place. It's an easy way to toss your brother on the thrash-bin of salvation
Huh?
Hmm, half of me believes that Born Againers believe that everyone is a sinner and condemned to death and eternal damnation. Thus the death cult belief. The other half of me believes that no one could be that stupid and vile to believe that kind of nonsense.
Take your pick : )
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