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When Atheists Attack (Each Other)
Evolution News and Views ^ | April 28 2011 | Davld Klinghoffer

Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode

The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.

On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.

I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.

Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.

Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,

We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.
Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.

That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!

It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.

There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,

I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.
A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.

There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.

The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.

Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.




TOPICS: Education; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: atheism; atheists; darwin; evolution; gagdadbob; onecosmosblog
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; James C. Bennett

And as I’ve pointed out - the question is fundamentally flawed to begin with. Salvation in an INDIVIDUAL response - not extended entire tribes. As you point out ampu- it is not the decisive logical question he likes to think of it as.


2,461 posted on 06/09/2011 7:09:03 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Matchett-PI
...continue to want to get out in the tangled weeds that reflect arguments that simplistic fundie atheists think "proves" their conclusions.

By golly, you have described "our" very own fundie atheists to a tee! Expect to be cursed up one side and down the other for doing so. It STILL needed to be said. Thanks.

2,462 posted on 06/09/2011 7:11:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: kosta50; James C. Bennett; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

He also tolerated divorce and polygamy, according to Jesus.

Abraham had Him tolerating a very high percentage of homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah. In the ante-diluvian world God tolerated quite a bit until the buzzer sounded for the end of the game.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Who knows, Kosta, He might still zap you.

All that being said, I suppose in it, you might discern the difference between a God and a human being. He is the one who commands humans to respect the rights of other humans as He spells out those rights.

You and James, however, have no logical basis for believing in the life for even yourself, much less anyone else.


2,463 posted on 06/09/2011 7:18:08 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Godzilla; James C. Bennett
Biblical example is that some who never heard of Jesus were saved

Who?

Salvation is on an individual basis - you try to force it into a blanket act.

Christianity teaches that God predestined those who will be elect (saved) before the foundation of the world. Nothing you do, say, believe or think can change that. Or does God change his mind?

Again - your logic is based upon a flawed premise

JCB, notice your premise is always flawed and theirs is always correct. Because they believe so! And they are absolutely certain about the uncertain. Neat, huh? :)

If you demand an answer - then you must accept what the scripture states - not your invalid atheist construct.

Sounds like spiritual extortion to me.

As the verses I cited above show - your assertion that the 'precondition to faith' is ONLY your definition is not valid according bible...It is common to try to misdirect responsibility for your adopted dogma to other subjects... My assumptions are firm - your assumptions on this - evidenced by your flawed question - are what you are getting carried away about.

You see, JCB, their evidence is like this: I am right and you are wrong. Your premises are flawed and mine are justified. You thinking is invalid and mine is true. Are you convinced now? Intellectual giants.

2,464 posted on 06/09/2011 7:20:39 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50

You thinking=Your thinking


2,465 posted on 06/09/2011 7:21:16 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: James C. Bennett; Godzilla
You didn’t answer me: Saved or not? Yes or no? Simple question, simple to answer.

It can't be reduced to a yes or no answer, and so far the answers you have been given, you have rejected because they don't fit in with your pre-established paradigm and don't give you adequate reason to continue rejecting God.

God knows the heart. He will judge justly.

There is no salvation without Christ. Whether those who have never heard have the opportunity to receive Christ when confronted with Him is unknown.

It could well be that when they see Christ, they will recognize Him as the one they have served, albeit in ignorance and say, *So it was YOU all along*.

But that's just an opinion.

That said, God HAS given enough revelation of Himself to the world that no man is without excuse, whether they specifically ever heard the name of Jesus or not.

2,466 posted on 06/09/2011 7:28:02 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: xzins; James C. Bennett; betty boop
In the ante-diluvian world God tolerated quite a bit until the buzzer sounded for the end of the game

Ante-diluvian? How about slavery being regulated in the Torah, as is killing your own children for disobedience?

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Who knows, Kosta, He might still zap you

And maybe Zeus will zap you. :)

He is the one who commands humans to respect the rights of other humans as He spells out those rights.

By ordering genocides of human infants? There are no human rights as we understand them in the Bible.

You and James, however, have no logical basis for believing in the life for even yourself, much less anyone else

No, xzins, you have no logical basis for being certain in the uncertain.

2,467 posted on 06/09/2011 7:31:45 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: Godzilla; James C. Bennett; caww

JCB seems to think that by reducing it to a yes or no, he’s got us in a gotcha position; damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

And if we don’t play his game, and do give him the best answer possible, he does the gotcha because we didn’t give a yes or no.

No matter what answer he receives, he will continue to use it to justify his rejection of God because he has predetermined that no answer is adequate enough for him to put his faith in Christ.


2,468 posted on 06/09/2011 7:33:04 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: kosta50

You replies indicate you are very hung up with the muzzies/koran, obsessed like, so perhaps you are studying to be one or you’re catholic. What’s in the heart comes out the mouth.

Now about the 5 year old - must be tough to read they know more than you meanwhile you laughed at the thought. But atheist/agnostics are not known for having a good grasp on anything - not even themselves because they deceive themselves and don’t even know it.


2,469 posted on 06/09/2011 7:33:23 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: kosta50; James C. Bennett; Alamo-Girl; betty boop

I am correct. You believe in something that has no apparent, logical basis. And these things you disbelieve in for no certain reason: You deride slavery, but you have no basis to condemn it or praise it. You are indignant at genocide, but you have nothing that makes sense in arguing for it or against it.

You are a mass of contradition, because you appear to be acting on the moment, the feel of it, the social approval of it...something.

I, on the other hand, can point to a historic document revealing my beliefs, and those beliefs have shaped our society and its highest ideals. (Which you try to cling to.)

Slavery regulated in the Torah because it, like your disbelief, was tolerated until God chose to call the end game. (Divorce also was tolerated in the OT, as Jesus explained regarding Moses’ “bill of divorcement.”)


2,470 posted on 06/09/2011 7:41:56 PM PDT by xzins
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To: kosta50; metmom; aMorePerfectUnion
Biblical example is that some who never heard of Jesus were saved
Who?

Try Hebrews 11

Christianity teaches that God predestined those who will be elect (saved) before the foundation of the world. Nothing you do, say, believe or think can change that. Or does God change his mind?

Cite the passage correctly kosta - to do otherwise is not intellectually honest

Ro 8:29* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

JCB, notice your premise is always flawed and theirs is always correct. Because they believe so! And they are absolutely certain about the uncertain. Neat, huh? :)

And when atheists do the same it is OK. Problem is kosta the premise IS flawed as described. What is glaringly ABSENT is the recognition on your part that the question is flawed.

Sounds like spiritual extortion to me.

If there is no God, what is there to 'extort' kosta - you just turn to worm food. But is there is a God - he shouldn't be so readily dismissed with faulty arguments.

You see, JCB, their evidence is like this: I am right and you are wrong. Your premises are flawed and mine are justified. You thinking is invalid and mine is true. Are you convinced now? Intellectual giants.

Unfortunately kosta - you haven't shown anything on your part.

2,471 posted on 06/09/2011 7:41:56 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: kosta50; Godzilla; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Christianity teaches that God predestined those who will be elect (saved) before the foundation of the world. Nothing you do, say, believe or think can change that. Or does God change his mind?

And you have been around on the RF to know that that blanket statement is a total fallacy.

According to you, then, Catholicism then teaches that men are predestined to be saved, just like Calvinism does. Or are you saying that Catholicism, which teaches free will, isn't Christianity.

2,472 posted on 06/09/2011 7:42:47 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; James C. Bennett; caww; aMorePerfectUnion
JCB seems to think that by reducing it to a yes or no, he’s got us in a gotcha position; damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

It doesn't matter to them if the question is fundamentally flawed - salvation is always an individual matter - not an entire 'tribe' units. Their emphasis on repeating the same question - even when shown to be flawed - doesn't support their position well (nor all their back slapping). shows that the skeptic is not an honest skeptic.

No matter what answer he receives, he will continue to use it to justify his rejection of God because he has predetermined that no answer is adequate enough for him to put his faith in Christ.

Indeed, invalidly structured questions - to which they don't have the answer to either.

2,473 posted on 06/09/2011 7:47:11 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: metmom; kosta50

Looks like Kosta is looking for loopholes - since his application for fire insurance+rider was rejected! LOL!!


2,474 posted on 06/09/2011 7:48:47 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: James C. Bennett; metmom
Are the tribals saved? Yes or no? Simple question, here.

JCB, have you stopped beating your spouse? Yes or no? Simple question.

2,475 posted on 06/09/2011 7:53:01 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; aMorePerfectUnion

this latest round shows that the atheists have a false impression that Christians would be troubled by those who many not have heard about Jesus being allowed into heaven. Their questions are simplistic misrepresentations or questions that have been answered, perhaps not to atheist satisfaction, but they’ve been answered. Their ‘satisfaction’ is the ultimate arberter of truth and the goal posts move with great regularity.


2,476 posted on 06/09/2011 8:01:10 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

Nobody but the atheists are troubled that people who never heard of Jesus HERE ON EARTH, might make into heaven.

I’d be tickled that some of them have responded to the truth that was revealed to them and they were saved as a result.

And that still is totally irrelevant to each individual and their answering to God.

The real issue is that the atheists on FR have heard of Jesus and have been presented with the plan of salvation. What are they going to do with that knowledge. That is ALL they have to worry about.


2,477 posted on 06/09/2011 8:05:22 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Nobody but the atheists are troubled that people who never heard of Jesus HERE ON EARTH, might make into heaven.

I didn't look at that quite like that before. Indeed.

2,478 posted on 06/09/2011 8:13:51 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: James C. Bennett; kosta50
Are the tribals saved?

Are either of you tribals?
2,479 posted on 06/09/2011 8:18:21 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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To: James C. Bennett; xzins
Tolerating someone violating the Golden Rule destroys the fabric of society that the said person too relies on, thus unravelling it. Since every individual is driven by natural selection to look out for his or her progeny, destroying this society, in the long run, doesn't bode well for that individual and his or her progeny, over time. To that end, it makes it imperative for successful societies to not encourage entities that destroy altruistic behaviour.

So, pray tell, how did ANY society survive long enough to eventually get the point that they must "look out for each other" and not kill or be killed? You contend that this "golden rule" required millenia to be learned, so how could any non-golden rule society continue past their own lifespans - if they were lucky?

2,480 posted on 06/09/2011 8:19:24 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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