Posted on 06/10/2007 7:24:29 PM PDT by Reaganesque
Sally Denton uses today's Los Angeles Times op-ed page as a launching pad for the movie based on her book, "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857," and as a means to propagate more anti-Mormon bigotry at the expense of Mitt Romney. Denton insists that Romney has to respond about the nature of his faith if he expects to win the nomination for the Presidency -- and uses a lot of 19th-century examples to "prove" her case:
MITT ROMNEY'S Mormonism threatens his presidential candidacy in the same way that John F. Kennedy's Catholicism did when he ran for president in 1960. Overt and covert references to Romney's religion — subtle whispering as well as unabashed inquiries about the controversial sect he belongs to — plague his campaign. None of his responses so far have silenced the skeptics.
Recent polls indicate that from 25% to 35% of registered voters have said they would not consider voting for a Mormon for president, and conventional wisdom from the pundits suggests that Romney's biggest hurdle is his faith. Everyone seems eager to make his Mormonism an issue, from blue state secularists to red state evangelicals who view the religion as a non-Christian cult.
All of which raises the question: Are we religious bigots if we refuse to vote for a believing Mormon? Or is it perfectly sensible and responsible to be suspicious of a candidate whose creed seems outside the mainstream or tinged with fanaticism?
Ironically, Romney is the only candidate in the race (from either party) who has expressed discomfort with the idea of religion infecting the national dialogue. While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.
First, Denton is hardly an unbiased pundit in this regard. She's flogging a book and a movie about an atrocity committed by Mormons 150 years ago. For Denton, 1857 is relevant to 2007, but for most Americans. The suggestion that Romney needs to answer for Brigham Young would be as silly as saying that Democrats have to answer for Stephen Douglas or that Lutherans today have to answer for the anti-Semitic rants of Martin Luther.
Denton first off would have people believe that all Mormons are "tinged with fanaticism," but does nothing to advance that case. She discusses the beginnings of their church in great detail, but her history lessons appear to end at 1857. In the only mentions of any connection to the present, she uses the HBO series Big Love and Warren Jeffs, neither of which has any connection to the modern Mormon church or to Romney's faith. Both the fictional account in Big Love and the unfortunately non-fiction and despicable Jeffs involve polygamist cults -- and in the TV series, are showed as in mortal opposition to the Mormons.
Denton includes this helpful instruction at the half-way point:
It's not a church's eccentric past that makes a candidate's religion relevant today, but its contemporary doctrines. (And it's worth noting that polygamy and blood atonement, among other practices, are no longer condoned by the official Mormon church hierarchy.)
So what contemporary doctrines does Romney need to explain? Denton never says. Instead, she spends her time writing about how Joseph Smith once declared his intention to run for President -- in 1844. She discusses how John C. Fremont's candidacy died on the rumor that he was Catholic -- in 1856. She mentions 1960, in which John Kennedy dealt with anti-Catholic bigotry, but only barely notes that he prevailed over it -- and that was almost 50 years ago.
Denton then frames the question that she feels Romney has to answer:
Do you, like the prophet you follow, believe in a theocratic nation state? All the rest is pyrotechnics.
Unfortunately for Denton, Romney has answered this question every time it gets asked. And somewhat incoherently, Denton appears to forget that she herself acknowledges this near the beginning of the column:
While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.
Romney has no need to enter into the field of religious apologetics in his campaign for the presidency, no more than does Harry Reid in order to run the Senate. He certainly has no guilt to expiate on behalf of a massacre committed almost a century before his birth, and for people like Warren Jeffs who do not have any connection to the Mormon church. In other words, Denton has taken up space at the LA Times to exercise her bigotry and to not-so-coincidentally sell a few books and movie tickets. She and the LA Times should be ashamed.
UPDATE: One commenter suggests that people opposed Keith Ellison on the basis of his religion. Er, not quite. We opposed him on the basis of his association with the notoriously anti-Semitic group Nation of Islam and its leader, Louis Farrakhan, and his association with CAIR, which has supported terrorist groups like Hamas. If Romney had spoken at Warren Jeffs' compound for political donations, then the analogy would be apt. Ellison's problem isn't his religion but the company he keeps, politically, a fact that he and his apologists like to wrap in a false cloak of religious antagonism.
No I don’t think I call FC furryball that was MGT, I call Fast Coyote, FastCootie
those are my endearment names
you might also ask how nonbelievers should be teated in a just society (i.e., one run according to the beliefs of the persn in question.
Those names are funny. :-)
It really is up to the receiver as to whether or not they are “endearing.”
I still love you resty! I’m going to bed now.
I’m not actively posting on that thread. If you go back to the beginning of that thread, you will see I entered the discussions on good terms having nothing to do with Mormonism. (I posted a picture of Jim Nabors....goolllyyy)remember. Then I was called “anti-Mormon” or bigot or some such (I’ve come to pretty much ignore the name-calling, it is so Kindergarten.)
You are exactly right about most Mormons not giving a rat’s a** about theology. In fact, most non-Mormons don’t give a rat’s a** about theology. Most people simply are comfortable in believing something about a God and a possiblity of living after death etc. They don’t have any in-depth knowledge about their own denomination, and see most “American” religions as just variations of the same theme.
Do you know why Romney chose to be a Mormon? I’ve never talked to the man, but I can tell you why, because it’s the same reason 95 percent of us are whatever we are. He didn’t choose to be Mormon — his parents chose it for him. And like most people, he was indoctrinated into believing it would upset his parents, his other family members, and probably God if he didn’t just sign up for Mormonism too. Fear and guilt. Whether your parents intended to use those weapons against you or not, they were used against you in your youth. Your theology most likely is the religion of your parents. People are sheep.
Goodnight CC have sweet dream of two boys on bikes with name tags!:)
Oh yes, and the title of that thread was "Romney the Gollygamist" or something very much like that.
Gollygamist is a direct reference to Polygamy and the controversy that surrounds Romney because of the early LDS practice of plural marriage. THAT is why Mormonism became part of the discussion....it didn't just come out of nowhere as some might presume.
LOL.
They ARE sweet boys. I still sometimes remember them in my prayers. They are under so much stress, toil, strain, danger, and what they consider loving service. They deserve all of our prayers.
Luckily for us sheep, there are those brave thinkers who have moved beyond their personal upbringing and have transcended themselves. If only we could all be so lucky. Write a book. Show us the way.
Would any of you like to set buckeye straight about how strongly Romney believes in Mormonism.
He was a Bishop and Stake President which is a high ecclisiastical position. He is a Temple endowed member which means he has passed an interview regarding not only his strong faith but his knowledge and obedience as well.
No, Romney is NOT a fly-by-night, lukewarm believer by birth, he is a very staunch Mormon.
Bed, I’ve got to go to bed.
That is not how it works for all Bucky I am converting and did my own homework before I was baptized!
I have a witness by the Power of the Holy Ghost and so I did investigate the Church and those who are successful in the Church also had their personal revelation.
True some are there because of the family but one would be miserable if they did not have witness that Church was true and find a way to justify their leaving!
I am the only member from my family.
Most LDS are very familiar with their standard works and than some there is a whole lot of independent studying going on.
I can tell you Romney is a practicing LDS
No sheepo here!:)
Oh, now THIS is really irritating. Now I'm more annoyed at Romney than I was. My problem is not that Romney is "a Mormon." My problem with him is that he isn't Mormon ENOUGH. Theologically I think the Mormons are off in the weeds. This wouldn't in and of itself stop me from voting for a Mormon. Had I lived in Utah, I'd have no problem voting for Orin Hatch. I look at what a man or woman DOES, and I don't automatically assume that they follow everything accord to "brand name." It's how a person actually walks the walk.... For instance Rudy's "I don't personally believe in abortion, but blah, blah, blah, I'll uphold abortion rights" STINKS in my opinion, and he is supposed to be the same religion as I am. I'm voting for the Baptist, Hunter. Because when push comes to shove he VOTES the right way on the values. HOW he got there, is his business. THAT he got there is what's important. I don't trust Mitt in the sense that he's been a blow dried slickster trying to get in good with the creeps from Massachusetts and for years he sold out on the prolife position. Now he's claiming to be prolife -- wanna bet he'll move back left again if he gets the nomination? As a Mormon, he SHOULD have been prolife all along. He wasn't. No one is perfect, but he compromised a core belief. Nuts to him. Again, not because he is a Mormon, but frankly, because he isn't a GOOD ENOUGH Mormon with some consistency on core values.
And as long as Wolf BLITZED gets to ask religious questions, I really wanna know how Barrack HUSSEIN Obama's early religious beliefs affect him, and why he supposed turned on that headhacker religion. Is he REALLY "done with it?" Or just "posing." And if that's racist...or bigoted...too bad. I won't vote for an atheist and I'm not voting for a headhacker supporter. REAL Jew, REAL Protestant, REAL Mormon, REAL Orthodox, REAL Catholic, REAL Mormon, no problem. REAL wishywashy? Forget it. I'm not having it.
HH: We’ll do you movies later in the interview. I want to get back to Benedict. You know, you’ve done this movie September Dawn about an atrocity 150 years ago in a mountain meadow in Utah. And from that, you’re drawing a lot of lessons. You’ve been out there a lot talking a lot about this. How does the movie depict Brigham Young’s letter let them pass, the letter that many of his defenders say exonerates him from complicity? How does the movie treat it?
JV: You know something? The movie does not get into that. The movie…it is not a court session, you know, and I don’t really want to get into a court session about it. In a sense, that’s for others to do. What we’ve depicted in the movie, I think is very accurate from all that I have read. And of course, when we’re dealing with a film, we’re dealing with a metaphor of some sort, or you know, poetry of some sort, where you have to condense things down to another form. And then you have to determine, if you’re an artist, you have to determine whether that represents the truth. And in my judgment, it does represent the truth, this film under two hours, represents the events as they happened.
It will be interesting to see who here holds this film in high esteem or not. Who will on this forum will coveniently ignore the facts just because a film fits his or her agenda?
Go goose yourSELF!!
You must hate us!
--MormonDude
And I am a p**
Amen to THIS!
NIV Hosea 4:5-6
5. You stumble day and night, and the prophets stumble with you. So I will destroy your mother--
6. my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.
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