Posted on 02/22/2005 4:17:49 AM PST by strategofr
I am simply cross-posting a message I just put up on strategypage.com. The story behind the message is, there is a good guy named Sentinnel28a who slammed me pretty good and I lost track of the thread, but then found it and responded. You can see his thread in quotes, all broken up, inside my post. Hello everyone, especially badray and his buddy whose freeper name I forget. By the way, I am plain "stratego" on strategypage.com, but that was taken here so I added the "fr", free republic.
Here's the thread:
Glad I found this thread. Been meaning to reply to it but did not want to recently as I was in a "low energy" state due to work stress.
First, I want to thank you Sent and Bob, for taking the time to respond to my comment, while many would not bother due to the apparent "flakiness" of my stance.
"Conspiracy theory. While I wouldn't put it past Putin to "arrange" Beslan, I think it is more probable that the Chechens did this themselves."
This sounds hopeful to me. You seem to be saying there is a possibility that Putin set it up. Let me ask you specifically. Do the circumstances arouse supsicion in your mind. How could terrorists have broken through the cordon? Are the Spetnaz that incompetent? The only similar story I recall is Saudi Arabia (and we know how conflicted they are about terrorism.)
Remember, there was widespread suspicion in Russia that Putin set up previous Chechyen incidents. You caught those references in the press, didn't you? the only reason nothing like that dribbles out now may be Putin's tighter grip on the press.
"What terrorist group targets children? All of them. Hamas has seen no problem with targeting pizzerias, there were certainly children killed on the airliners on 9/11, and even Timothy McVeigh parked his rent-a-bomb next to the nursery in the Murrah building. By seizing children, the Chechens expected to get concessions--but to a fanatic, a Russian child is just going to grow up to become a Russian soldier. The Germans used the same excuse to execute partisans or those suspected of being such, children included."
Here, I confess limited knowlege. Bob's point on Palestinian's pointing rifles at infants and firing counts here along with yours. I still feel that so far, my point may hold. I'd be happy to get more details on the "pizzerias", in terms of their clientell. But even so, I feel that it was probably less a clera cut symbolic attack on "children" than a scool attack. And McVeigh seems to be a nearly lone actor, so he may be somewhat exceptional.
Of course, I realize that terrororists like to kill children and kill a lot of them and certainly never try to avoid it. That is not my point. My point is that the deliberate targeting of children is nonetheless a new level of sickening-ness, and it adds to my supsicions here.
"I think this is just plain fearmongering, and maybe even an unconscious desire to want to believe some world-spanning conspiracy is behind 9/11. No one wants to admit that some "ignorant camel-jockeys" like Osama pulled off the most successfully gruesome attack on American soil in our history. It has to be someone else more sophisticated, more like our traditional enemies--for some people, the Russians; for others, like Michael Moore, George W. Bush."
I can see why you might think those are my motives, but it comes from a different direction. An overview of my reasoning goes like this.
1) the Soviets created 20th century terrorism, for the most part, at least post-Algeria. I don't know if you agree with this or not. If you agree, this means that up to 1990-1, they held the reins. I figure, why let them go, if you are gues like Putin and his former KGB colleagues and you run the Russian gov't. What do you think Putin & friends spend all day doing, economic policy? I figure they work the stuff they were trained for and spend their working lives on.
2) For example, people assumed that Russian spying would tail off after the Cold War was over. But separate reports from Britain and the US indicate Russian spying now equals or exceeds Cold War levels. The spying is feeding their for-profit arms sales. In my opinion, it is also helping terrorists (you must admit, such information would be useful to terrorists in many cases.)
3) Arms sales are very important to Russia's economy.(Iran's Nuclear Option, AJ Venter, Casemate, 2005, p. 304) "In other words, Russia has become the largest exporter of convenional arms since 2001 (responsible for 36 percent of all global arms transfers in 2002.)" If asked, I can give you the footnote on this one.
Terrorism "stirs the pot" and improves the overall market for Russian arms sales.
4) Look at Russia's relationship to Iran. p. 207, same source. "There are those who believe that the Shabab-3---the same missle that was fired more than a thousand miles in early 2004---to be no more than aninterim measureand that teheran's focus will now be concentrated on the Shabab-4 with its longer range and larger payload capacity. Unlike its predecessor, the Shabab-4 is a product of exclusively Russian ballistic missle technology and, by all accounts, it's development is expected to be completed within two to three years."
I need not go into the details of Russian involvement with nuclear technology, as this tends to be well known right now. Venter develops the thesis that Russia's involvement with Iran is motivated by a desire for cash, and the money is big. But I think in this case, even the Russians must be considering the geopolitical side. One aspect of which is that they are providing the greatest overt supporters of terrorism on earth with the means to place nukes in the hands of terrorists. They are also providing the means for Iran to possibly deter a conventional US attack (via the combination of nukes and ICBMs, not too far off.) This doesn't prove Russian involvement with terrorism, but it disproves the idea that they "oppose" it.
"Finally, since AQ seems to be having its ass handed to them since October 2001, it doesn't say much for the FSS' competence."
You might mean the FSB here. If I am in error, please explain my mistake to me. I'm not saying Putin is going to worry about what happens to al Queda, nor do I believe he micromanages it. Even I will admit that would be overly dangerous for him. If he is exerting control, it is via occassional information exchanges, done by such methods as arresting the Egyptian terrorist who used to be oriented toward Egyptian targets but, since his release by the Russians, has become a top al Queda operative. (sorry, I can't remember the name.) If al Queda is not controlled by the Russians, why tolerate this guy who seems to be a Russian mole? I think he's acted as a messenger boy. Sure, its elaborate, but its SOP for spies when dealing in delicate situations.
And no argument, Putin is doing that. But he's KGB, man. He lives for this kind of stuff.
Putin is no friend of the US, but even he wouldn't go so far as sponsoring AQ or a 9/11 like attack. The stakes are too high, and include his own hide.
Final word to Bob. Cheer up. Goss, in charge of the CIA now, is supposed to be the best man for the job, accoding to a guy I met in DC over the weekend who knows numerous CIA people. (It was at CPAC, a public-accessible event. I am not a person with any "access.) Condi is kicking butt at state and will soon turn the direction of State around. And if George can just set it up so the Iraqi army can take over completely inside Iraq (except for the border) by 9/2008, Hillary will lose and we will have another Republican President. George Allen for president.
If you survive this, read a lot, read the front page.
Learn the rules, written and unwritten.
Post only on existing threads for a while, gain some credibility.
Learn which threads/posters/topics interest you.
Often, there is an existing thread, where your opinion will fit in.
Be prepared to back up your posts with hard facts.
If you state an opinion, mark it so, and explain why you believe it.
Lots of real sharp folks here, learn from them.
Develop a real thick skin, then grow it thicker.
I'll tell you what I think. I think most of you are islamic terrorist supporters who want to deflect the blame for one of the most horrific acts ever done to someone else. Which, if true, puts you among the lowliest humans on earth.
I have studied chechen terrorists and especially Basayev since I had the "opportunity" to visit there, and I know a chechen act when I see one. This thing had every famous Basayev trademark all over it. I don't really appreciate your attempt to erase the blame for what was done by some of the most subhumans on earth. I have been reading chechen terrorist sites for the last 7 years on a pretty regular basis. A lot of people think it was the chechens who taught the Iraquis about snuff films with beheadings. I have in the past been an advocate for a new large parking lot - chechnya. I guess you think Putin was behind the human slave trade markets in Urus-Martin and Grozny, as well as the multiple and brutal kidnapping of children who were then mutilated on films which were sent to their parents?
The problem with this possibility is that the chechens are so stupid they filmed themselves committing acts of torture and brutality.
I am really sick and tired of those of your ilk.
You badly need an education, so I recommend a book called the Wolves of Islam.
It was very educational to lurk as long as I did.
Folks here are really good about explaining things to new folks if they come in the right way, and I always go to the historical stuff just to better understand this place.
I was lurking the night Buckhead challenged the memo...I'll never forget it.
Wow you have already been part of history here.
Thing about it, I was in the military 64 - 84 and remember most lower level units didn't have the ability to type superscripts, during GWB's years of service.
I didn't remember that till Buckhead posted it...I let out a yell that caused the dog to bark for 15 minutes and the cat to hide under the bed..heck of a thing.
Did you even know in your haste to paint a picture of Putin as a tyrannist that his suggestion to have the outlying governors appointed rather than voted for was because of the corruption that led to the children being killed at Beslan?
Did you even know that he got the idea from his good friend Berlusconi, who was at his home visiting while they were watching our election returns and rooting for Bush?
Did you know that for many years Italy has had appointment of all regional governors? Does that make Berlusconi a tyrant too?
Did you know that the appointments can be vetoed at the local levels by councils there? That's more democratic than the way Italy does it. Why is it always Putin who is the bad guy? You people buy into the same liberal crap they dispense about him in Russia that the liberals dispense here about Bush.
You must have been amazed. Your poor pets! :-)
There have been some really great things that have come from this forum. And if you ever get the chance to meet Jim, do it. He's an angel in disguise.
Clerk typists had the ability to roll the platen to get the ss effect, but it wasn't true superscript.....no one bothered to do it, slowed 'em down; in all my documents, all I had was nnth, and that was the accepted way of doing it..I just laughed and laughed.
I bet you did! Old Rather is doing his formal retirement thing now, isn't he? I thought I heard something about that happening this week....
Everyone's different.
We'll see.
Your post is pretty sobering. You seem to have a lot of knowlege on this specific subject, and you are making me re-think my theory here. But not making me re-think my basic view of Putin and the current Russian government, which is based on very extensive reading.
However, you are mistaken about my identity. I am not an Islamic terrorist or sympathizer. I am an American Jew who is, in fact, a Conservative Republican and worked hard (as a phone volunteer) to help to elect George Bush.
Furthermore, I am not uneducated, in general, about terrorism, despite any deficiencies I may have about Beslan and Chechnya. If anyone was really curious, they could look up my posts on strategypage.com (SP) under my rubric there, stratego. However, there is one problem, SP does not have a search engine to find my posts. I am only saying this to state that my positions on terrorism have been stated in much detail on the Web already.
Here is the Table of Contents of the 80 pages of Campaign Notes I wrote for the 2004 Election campaign. Anyone who is really interested and does not mind signing up for a Microsoft website can go to
http://groups.msn.com/2004CampaignNotes/_whatsnew.msnw
and download the document themselves.
Introduction 2
How to Use the Table of Contents 2
Online Version 2
Glossary 2
Campaign Details 3
Phone Callers Get Thirsty 3
Barriers and Noise 4
Large Fonts---Phone Callers Need to Read the Names and Phone Numbers on the Calling Lists 5
Call Center Manager Needs to be Trained on Cell Phones 5
No Victory Center or Caller Should Ever Run Out of Leads 6
Talking Points Sheets for Volunteer Phone Callers 7
Campaign Procedure Information Sheets for Phone Callers---Specific to Each Type of Call 8
“Response Codes” Should be Printed at the Top of Each Sheet of Names and Numbers to Be Called 9
Call Checking Reconsidered 10
Debates 10
Kerry Cheated in the First Debate---It is a Video-Documented, Drudge-Reported Fact 15
Democrat Violence and Misdemeanors in 2004 17
Democrat Fraud 19
Main Stream Media Misinformation about Bush’s November 1, 2004 Visit to the Pittsburgh Area 21
Bush Campaign Too Weak on Economics: Ignored Obvious Points or Caught Them Too Late 22
Campaign Tactics 25
A Few Words on Doors 25
The Important Problem of the Need for Poll Watchers in Dangerous Neighborhoods 27
Low-Level Volunteers Must be Served 27
Don’t Waste Volunteer Resources by Turning Them Away---Instead, Energize 28
Volunteers Spending Their Own Money on What They Need 31
A Volunteer Campaign of Unlimited Size and Duration Made Possible by All-Volunteer Victory Centers 32
Advanced and Beginning Callers 33
Scripts and Other Materials from the National Party Must be Idiot-Proof 35
Sets of Procedures for Victory Center Volunteers and Managers Must be Produced at a National Level 36
Republican Attack on Blue Areas: Nibble Around the Edge of the Cookie 37
Two Way Information Flow 37
The Structure of National Online’s Expanded Accessibility to Writers During the Election---And Wider Implications 43
Campaigning Over Longer Periods with Small Volunteer Efforts 45
Rewards for Volunteers 47
Campaign Strategy 47
Notes on Democrat Lawbreaking and Violence 47
Absolutely No Republican Vigilante Response 53
It Was a Mistake for Republicans and Friendly Media to Drop the Issue of Democrat Violence and Misdemeanors in the 2004 Campaign 56
Republicans Have Demonstrated How Effective They Can Be to Forestall Illegal Democrat Action With Their 2004 Anti-Ballot Box Stuffing Strategy 57
Each Voter Must Show a Driver’s License or Legally Equivalent ID---Eliminate Provisional Ballots 60
Republican Failure to Counter Democrat Arguments 61
Republicans and Conservatives need a Central Clearing House for Setting the Record Straight on Left Wing Distortions of History and Fact 63
Republicans Need to Tell Stories 64
Like It or Not: Bush’s Grand Strategy is Largely Built on The Hispanic Vote 65
2004 Proved that the Popular Vote Matters 67
Tax Exempt Organizations: Danger Ahead Obscured by Republican Swift Boat Luck and Democrat Ineptitude in 2004 68
Campaign Aftermath 69
My Participation in the Effort to Deny Specter the Judiciary Chair 69
Stop Specter, Strict Constructionism, and Right to Life 74
Media Bounceback after the Campaign 79
The things you mention do not seem key to the analysis of Putin here. Have you read Pacepa, Suvorov? Putin was a carreer KGB officer. Since he's been in office he has been helping Iran develop nuclear weapons and ever-improving missles. These are more important than the things you mention.
In addition, the idea that Russia is more democratic than Italy is absurd on the face of it.
Oui! :^D
You never know how many covert F.S.B. agents are trolling this website.
(Tinfoil hat Smiley.)
-good times, G.J.P.(Jr.)
ROFL!!!
Who me? I will have you know I am a fourteen year old girl.... Oh, you said FSB not FBI. Sorry.
:)
(Secret agent man.)
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