Posted on 03/03/2003 8:27:25 AM PST by general_re
I thought a new thread was a good idea, and here seems to be a good place to put it, so as not to clutter up "News". The only topic available was "heated discussion", though. ;)
If any clarification about the pictures is needed, just say so, and I will try to at least highlight the part that I am interested in for you. Remember that I'm interested in the objects or structures or artifacts being represented, so don't be thrown off if the illustrations seem abstract.
That's not my problem. Given enough time we can become much, much more than we are now, so for instance I am much more than I was 20 years ago but that was a continuous process. However, I cannot imagine to get rid of feelings like being sad, depressed, angry or bored no matter how long I exist.
So maybe this place is so extraordinary and exciting that I don't feel bored for several decades but no matter how exciting it may be there can come a point where nothing is interesting any more and even if you learn something new it doesn't really affect you the same way it did before. And now imagine this for an eternity.
Of course if someone tinkers with my mind and removes my ability to feel bored then I might as well spend eternity sitting in front of a white wall staring at it incessantly but this is not what I want. I don't want to be deprived of the ability to experience these feelings even if they are regarded as negative.
Disclaimer: Of course I don't believe in an afterlife or a creator but I am merely assuming arguendo that they exist)
I have considered it, but on personal experience I know what it is. There is no way I could ever convince you, it is virtually impossible to express in words. But if you give it a try, perhaps you will experience it as well.
Of course these experiences appear real and not as if they're only generated by your brain but fact is that everything that is generated by our brain appears real to us.
I have tried what you discribed but I've never had these out-of-body experiences or feelings of deep harmony and somesuch. Maybe I just can't regulate my blood flow in my parietal lobes ;)
I do hope you give it a try! If you are able to sense your being outside your body, then you may even entertain my conclusion, i.e. that the physical brain is a transmitter/receiver for the spirit.
Just as I said, I did but I didn't sense anything. However, I know of people who have experienced these things when meditating but they did not ascribe them to a supernatural source or concluded that the brain is only a transmitter/receiver for a mysterious ectoplasmatic entity.
If the brain were a transmitter/receiver then this supernatural waves interact with a physical entity and therefore they should be detectable by our instruments but so far this is not the case. On the other hand there are naturalistic explanations for these phenomena and current research also points in that direction so I don't think they should be dismissed in favour of supernatural explanations just because it feels that way.
Regards
Now that you have identified the object as silica, and even though I have revealed my ignorance of a 'simple' compound of elements, (the object's hollowness being the obvious clue that I could not decipher) I can determine that the object does not meet the criteria of of contingency required to sustain the inference of design. Silica is the result of forces of chemical necessity that can be described by the laws of chemistry. To quote from an abstract on silica, "The compound silica (SiO ) is formed from silicon and oxygen atoms. A chemical compound is defined as a distinct and pure substance formed by the union of two or more elements. Because oxygen is the most abundant element in the Earth's crust and silicon is the second most abundant, the formation of silica is quite common in nature."
So my answer here is the same as with #2; leaving aside any anthropic principle, the silica pictured does not exhibit the level of specified complexity that would render a secure design inference.
Cordially,
That's the next game:^), mentioned in mine and the general's acceptance of the conditions of this game here
A friend of mine has a son who is a long time resident of a mental institution. The son hears things that no one else hears, sees things that no one else sees, and, because he believes his senses, acts on the "information content" to the detriment of anyone in his vicinity.
Do you have any way of demonstrating to an objective observer that what you "know" is any different than what he "knows"?
What a beautiful post, Alamo-Girl! Thank you!
It might seem strange to say it, but there is a knowledge that we can access only by means of the "inside out," not by the usual procedure of the "outside in." As you say, it is virtually impossible to convey this concept in words. One must experience it to know it. Meditation and prayer are the usual routes to such experiences.
For those who believe that consciousness is but a physical phenomenon, there is a tendency to also believe there is no afterlife and there is also a tendency to believe that consciousness can be achieved through artificial intelligence.
I recently read a passage by Marvin Minsky, a major driver of the "Strong AI" school of artificial intelligence theory. In it he basically says, the solution to the problem of AI involves only two things: (1) the right algorithm; and (b) "a brief description of the system." There has to be (b), because intelligence by nature is self-reflecting; thus the system would need to be able "to understand itself." Minsky thought that could be spelled out in a "brief description."
Here's the passage (which I think is a real howler):
"Consciousness is overrated. What we call consciousness now is a very imperfect summary in one part of the brain of what the rest is doing. The real problem is that people who ask 'Could a machine be conscious?' think that they are. They think they have a pipeline to what's happening in their minds. That's not true. People scarcely know how they get ideas at all...it makes putting consciousness into machines easy, because I don't think it'll take very much. For a machine to solve very hard problems, it's going to have to have a brief description of itself. When there is a better theory about how certain parts of the brain summarize what's happening in other parts, then we'll understand it and be able to make machines do it."
Well, I'd sure like to see that "brief description," if he ever succeeds in formulating it.
No balrog666. This is something that cannot be demonstrated, only experienced.
But I have observed such a thing as you describe -- people undergoing hallucinations, hearing voices, etc., etc. (I worked two summers as a nursing assistant in a state mental institution when I was attending college.) One such person was convinced he was Napoleon.
I can't prove to your satisfaction (I'm sure) that what I've attempted to (imperfectly) convey is qualitatively any different than what is happening with your friend's son.
You'll just have to take my word on it, and then maybe try to set up the conditions that will permit you to have your own experience of what I'm talking about. You either prove it to yourself, or there's no proof.
I deeply regret that you have not achieved the communion or experienced the epiphany. I wish I could share the rapture with you, because it will never be 'real' to you until you go there.
I really wasn't speaking tongue-in-check because anyone who truly rejects the free gift of God in Christ, or fails to diligently seek Him, is wanting to be erased.
Perzackly.
The second death, as I understand it, is not eternal torment for non-believing ordinary beings but it is eternal torment for the rebellious spiritual principalities, Satan and his fallen angels, watchers, etc.
I would offer Matthew 25:41 for clarification. Hell was "prepared for the devil and his angels," but the text tells us that people will be thrown therein.
(The whole thing gets even more ominous when we realize that the aggelois [angels] of Matthew 25:41 properly includes people. [Ooops!])
Minsky does not realize his statement above is self-refuting.
Cordially,
The example you gave of the strong AI proponent dismissing consciousness in such shallow terms illustrates the futility of trying to convey states which cannot be adequately described by words alone. That is, it is beyond his comprehension it therefore does not exist.
Strangely, this same reaction happens even within the sciences. It distresses me to invest so much time and energy in understanding a theory only to see the scientist drop the ball altogether in the end when it gets beyond his particular discipline. This happens even within disciplines, such as when the exploration of dark energy runs up against m-theory, or when molecular biology runs up against information theory. It leaves it up to those of us who are watching to switch gears and try to stitch the seams on our own. Sigh…
Cordially,
That was my understanding, too, the_doc. It seems to me that "rebellious spiritual principalities" is a category "flexible enough" to include human beings who consciously choose to promote and extend the original rebellion...that of Satan and his host. Humans are free to choose to collaborate in that enterprise. Thus it seems such folks can become eligible for the same treatment as the devil himself.
But of course, this is only a speculation....
Regards and tanks very much for your reply
Yes, Diamond. Clearly it is. One wonders how a brilliant mind like Minsky could fail to see this. Perhaps because he doesn't want to see this?
There are a lot of gears and wheels wizzing around in the brain, most of which are now accessible to study. But the computational model is still a mystery, dispite being able to see the pieces.
This is not an unusual condition in science, so I think it is premature to pronounce the project a failure.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. – Revelation 20:10-14
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