Jefferson vs Lincoln: America Must Choose

Tenth Amendment Center. ^ | 2010 | Josh Eboch

[Idabilly]

Over the course of American history, there has been no greater conflict of visions than that between Thomas Jefferson’s voluntary republic, founded on the natural right of peaceful secession, and Abraham Lincoln’s permanent empire, founded on the violent denial of that same right.

That these two men somehow shared a common commitment to liberty is a lie so monstrous and so absurd that its pervasiveness in popular culture utterly defies logic.

After all, Jefferson stated unequivocally in the Declaration of Independence that, at any point, it may become necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…

And, having done so, he said, it is the people’s right to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Contrast that clear articulation of natural law with Abraham Lincoln’s first inaugural address, where he flatly rejected the notion that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Instead, Lincoln claimed that, despite the clear wording of the Tenth Amendment, no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; [and] resolves and ordinances [such as the Declaration of Independence] to that effect are legally void…

King George III agreed.

[Non-Sequitur]

You need to be careful of any dates that non-seq posts.

Yes well my typos in dates, while embarrassing, is nothing compared to the myths, misstatements, and outright falsehoods propagated by the Lost Cause Brigade. Witness Conservative9 in his reply 272.

[lentulusgracchus]

I would like to think that he'd believe the whole country was worth fighting for instead of running away.

You mean, like Pope at Second Manassas, or Rosecrans at Chickamauga?

[Non-Sequitur]

Typo. “58” should have been “68”

God does have a sense of humor.

[lentulusgracchus]

Check your timelines. Storm clouds seem to have been all on the part of the rebels.

Bull.

Lincoln, not yet in office, induced the governor of Illinois to commence the suppression of Missouri's government by arming the Wide-Awakes from Illinois Militia arms lockers.

I've also got five dollars that says Lincoln interfered with the Buchanan Administration's authority over Gen. Winfield Scott, when Scott determined to hold on to the Southern forts in December 1860.

Lincoln's policy was war all the way -- just as his private secretary said it was.

[Non-Sequitur]

A. So what? You in the habit of telling other countries how big an army they (don't) need?

Your Lost Cause buddies don't have problem with that. They constantly term Lincoln's call for 75,000 troops an aggressive act, forgetting that it happened over a month after the rebel regime called up their own horde.

There was no rebellion, but you knew that.

You continue to say that...and you continue to be wrong. The rebel actions meet the definition of a rebellion.

Insurrection is certified to the Congress or the President by the legislature or the governor of the affected State.

I must have missed where Article I, Section 8 said that. It just says Congress has the power for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions. It doesn't say the government needs the approval of the governor for that. Only to send troops to quell domestic violence.

Nobody in the departing States certified insurrection, for the very good reason that there was no rebellion. Entire States acting on their reserved rights and powers do not a "rebellion" make. But you knew that.

You keep telling yourself that, for all the good it does.

[Non-Sequitur]

You mean, like Pope at Second Manassas, or Rosecrans at Chickamauga?

I was thinking more like Meade at Gettysburg or Grant at Vickburg or Sherman at Atlanta.

[Non-Sequitur]

I've also got five dollars that says Lincoln interfered with the Buchanan Administration's authority over Gen. Winfield Scott, when Scott determined to hold on to the Southern forts in December 1860.

That would be the bill with Lincoln's picture on it? Sure you wouldn't rather double that bet? Or how about increase it by a factor of 10? Who's on a $50?

[lentulusgracchus]

It could more properly be said that the call for troops in the U.S. were a response to the threat issued by the confederate government.

More bull.

See my comments about the Missouri Wide-Awakes above.

Also, if you are correct (and you are not), then why were Ben Butler and the Sixth Mass formed up and moving within 48 hours of Lincoln's call for troops?

Troops from Pennsylvania, New York, and Massachusetts were all on foot within hours of Lincoln's call.

Threat from the South? I don't think so. Rather, a bunch of Northern politicians getting together to plan for a war to make them all Masters of the Universe -- that's a likelier explanation for these regiments' "timeliness".

[Doohickey]

The grownups are trying to have a discussion here.

Though that George Jefferson painting is pretty darned funny.

[lentulusgracchus]

I must have missed where Article I, Section 8 said that. It just says Congress has the power for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions. It doesn't say the government needs the approval of the governor for that.

Try reading Article IV Section 4 for comprehension sometime:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in the Union a Republican form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
(Emphasis supplied for the myopically impaired.)

[houeto]

The most ironic thing about the so-called Civil War is that its outcome has made slaves of us all.

[lentulusgracchus]

Who's on a $50?

Orville Babcock's favorite whisky-drinker.

[lentulusgracchus]

That is something I've commented on frequently -- that farm boys from Iowa and Illinois lost that war just as surely as the Alabamians they shot down.

[Poe White Trash]

The grownups are trying to have a discussion here.

LOL! If you say so.

[wardaddy]

The grownups are trying to have a discussion here

LOL...Bad Yankees seething with bitterness towards white southerners over something that neither the white southerners had to do with nor they themselves had to do with as so called victims are now grownups?

har har....this is ain't grownups...this is I'm pissed there are too many southern crackers in conservatism time......it's always been that here on these threads....the ABM homey posse at work....tough

grow enough Yankee right wingers and you can live without us..but till then all those weak little crybabies who can't clean up their own backyards and stop their own slide into socialism should shut up...and appreciate us.

PS..yes I know Kansas is GOP butthead

[rustbucket]

I've also got five dollars that says Lincoln interfered with the Buchanan Administration's authority over Gen. Winfield Scott, when Scott determined to hold on to the Southern forts in December 1860.

You'd win that bet, lg. Pay up, non-seq. From Link:

Letter to E. B. Washburne

(Confidential.)
SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS, December 21, 1860.

My dear Sir: Last night I received your letter giving an account of your interview with General Scott, and for which I thank you. Please present my respects to the general, and tell him, confidentially, I shall be obliged to him to be as well prepared as he can to either hold or retake the forts, as the case may require, at and after the inauguration.

Yours as ever,
A. LINCOLN

[Doohickey]

Please elaborate.

Mostly, Hamilton hated John Adams. The Ross Perot of his day (except smarter).

[rustbucket]

God does have a sense of humor.

Touche. I correct my errors when I become aware of them, as in the case of that typo I noticed after I posted the message.

[KrisKrinkle]

“The grownups are trying to have a discussion here.”

Are you sure about the “grownups” part? :)

[rustbucket]

Re Northern troop strength: I forgot the following information that came from the New York Herald and was reprinted by the New Orleans Daily Picayune on April 11, 1861 [my red bold below]. I posted it to these threads in 2004.

Military Preparations at the North

The New York Herald, of the 6th inst., gives accounts of what is going on in this way, in anticipation of a coercive policy on the part of the Washington administration. It says that on the 5th inst., Gov. Curtin, of Pennsylvania, besides being closeted with Lincoln an hour, had an interview with Secretary Cameron and Gen. Scott, and at 11 o'clock the same night, had a private interview with one of Gen. Scott's confidential officers. There is no doubt, it adds, that Pennsylvania will be put on war footing immediately.

Massachusetts is said to have six thousand six hundred and seventy men, all equipped and ready to march at twelve hours notice. Among them, says the Herald are two flying artillery batteries, almost as expert in drill as the best regulars, and several dragoon and cavalry corps, not surpassed in efficiency by any in the volunteer militia, in the United States. The infantry corps are well drilled.

New York State, according to the same authority, is pledged to furnish ten thousand men at forty eight hours notice, and other states in proportion.

Illinois and other Western States, adds the Herald, are begging to be called into the field.

Well, "forewarned, forearmed," is the lesson to be drawn from all of this.

...A Western Congressman, who has satisfied himself as to the purposes of the administration, by an interview with the President within the last twenty-four hours, remarked that "blood will be spilled in less than ten days." The unmistakable symptoms of an impending strife render it all too probable that his evil prophesy will be verified.

The federal administration does not mean to engage in any aggressive demonstrations. Its men of war are not put in fighting trim, and its troops are not collected in large bodies for a war subjugation. It simply intends to strengthen, protect, and defend, in case of attack, all Southern forts still in its possession, excepting Fort Sumter, which it is ready to abandon in order to avoid useless bloodshed. It will use all the resources at its command to collect the revenue.

Of course, all this gossip and vaticination must be taken only for what it is worth. We give it as we find it.

I will admit to having to look up "vaticination."