The Papacy and Islam

Bearean Beacon ^ | Richard Bennett and Robert J. Nicholson

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“You can’t have it both ways.”

I’m not trying to. I have been consistent throughout this thread.

“Logically, either your statement in #64 is false, or what I said in #83 is true.”

No, what I said in 64 is true and you premise in 83 is false.

[GoLightly]

was st paul not painting a broad brush when he pointed out wolves would come to steer the flock astray (20,000+ strong btw, protestantism must be proud)

Paul didn't paint with your same broad brush.

[GoLightly]

How exactly does one speak to the "CHURCH UNIVERSAL" (i.e. the set of all believers)?

Just say it in a language that a small percentage of the people understand & say you've done it.

[adiaireton8]

#64

A8: "A deficient *concept* of God does not necessarily entail that the object of that concept [i.e. the being described by the concept] is other than the one true God."

V998: "It does when laid side-by-side with the correct understanding of God by the Church sent by Him."

#129

V998: "That is not to say Jews don’t worship the same God. It is to say they know Him only deficiently compared to Christians."

What you say in #64 in conjunction with the second sentence of the quotation from #129 entails that Jews don't worship the same God Catholics worship. But what you say in the first sentence of #129 implies that Jews worship the same God Catholics worship. Which is it?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Speaking to another person is not speaking to the set of all believers. My point to Quix is that the idea that the Church is the set of all believers is completely foreign to the NT, and makes no sense of verses like Matt 18:17.

-A8

[Quix]

It’s not my task to speak to

The Church Universal.

Holy Spirit does that quite well.

As Christ said . . .

“My sheep KNOW MY VOICE.”

[Quix]

As opposed to the church that brought us orgies, political wars and The Inquisition???

[adiaireton8]

It’s not my task to speak to The Church Universal.

You completely ignored my point. How do you interpret Matt 18:17 given your notion that the Church is only the set of all believers?

-A8

[Quix]

then show me the unbroken church, show me the worshippers, show me where they worshiped.
= = =

INDEED.

There is no unbroken church with unbroken Anointing of Holy Spirit.

Just as there is none perfect amongst mortal humans . . . there’s no unbroken anointing on any of the GROUPS of persons either.

[GoLightly]

Matt 18:17 doesn’t say that the whole church should treat either as an outcast. Consider the whole teaching. It has to do with conflicts between two individuals. Rather than allowing the differences to fester, there is a process to try to resolve the differences & if that process is unsuccessful, they should stop dealing with each other.

Consider John 10, specifically John 10:16.

[adiaireton8]

You too are missing my point. If the Church is the "set of all believers", then how does one "tell it to the Church"? (Matt 18:17) How exactly does one tell anything to the set of all believers?

-A8

[GoLightly]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1577

[Alex Murphy]

Call me a leper. Call me a prostitute. Exclude me from your temples, because I am clearly not good enough & I would sully them.

Just don't let them call you a cab.

[adiaireton8]

Thanks, but the point is that it is impossible to speak to a set. The Church of which Christ speaks in Matt 18:17 is not a set; it is a hierarchical institution. That is why one can "tell it to the Church", because one is telling it to the bishops or presbyters in the Church. And when Jesus says in Matt 16:18 that He will build His Church, He is not saying "I will add to the set of all believers"; He is talking about the hierarchical institution "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Eph 2:20)

-A8

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“What you say in #64 in conjunction with the second sentence of the quotation from #129 entails that Jews don’t worship the same God Catholics worship. But what you say in the first sentence of #129 implies that Jews worship the same God Catholics worship. Which is it?”

Oh, I’m sorry. I just re-read what you originally posted and saw that I misread what you wrote. But in that statement you then seem to be saying that Allah is the same as the Trinity. After all, what you wrote about Jews and Yahweh could just as easily said about Muslims and Allah.

Jews do not WORSHIP the Trinity. You do, right? Does that mean you worship a different God than they do?

I think you are trying to collapse a larger issue into a preconceived category of your own making.

I worwhip the Trinity. I rarely if ever refer to God the Father as Yahweh in my prayers or in the Mass. Does that mean I worship a DIFFERENT God than Jews? Or is it that Jews have a deficient understanding of the completeness of God in the Three Persons of the Trinity? Which is it?

[Quix]

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.NIV

15-17”If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him—work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you’ve made a friend. If he won’t listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won’t listen, tell the church. If he won’t listen to the church, you’ll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God’s forgiving love. THE MESSAGE

= = = =

What’s the confusion? Obviously, the local congregation is meant. Nothing else would be fitting or practical, it seems to me.

[adiaireton8]

Jews worship the one God who is three in person, even though they do not know that the one God they worship is three in Person. Noting the Athenians' altar "To an Unknown God", Paul says, "What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you". (Acts 17:23) This shows that it is possible to worship God while knowing very little about Him. The Jews, of course, knew much more about God than did the Athenians. A fortiori, they too were (and are) worshipping the one true God, even while remaining unaware that He is three in person. Marcion claimed that the God whom the Jews worshipped was a different God than the Father of Jesus. The Church declared Marcion's position a heresy. According to the Church, the God of the Old Testament and the Jews is the Creator of all things and is the Father of Jesus, and the Father whom Christians worship.

The Church also teaches (CCC 841) that the Muslims worship this same God, even though they too do not recognize that God is a trinity of Persons.

-A8

[hosepipe]

[... The priesthood he created with Aaron. The place for worship he demanded. ..]

You mean the renagade government Moses people demanded to be like the people in the lands around them?.. Haveing a King and government like them..

Most so-called orthodox religions model themselves after.. completely or in part..

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Jews worship the one God who is three in person, even though they do not know that the one God they worship is three in Person.”

They do? Do they agree with that statement? No. Yet you are right. Then again, your statement would work equally well with Muslims. That’s the point.

“The Church also teaches (CCC 841) that the Muslims worship this same God, even though they too do not recognize that God is a trinity of Persons.”

No. 841 teaches that Muslims profess to worship the same God of Abraham we claim to worship. In reality they worship as they understand him. So do Jews. So do we.

I wrote WAY BACK IN POST #42: “For ANYONE to deny that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham would be lunacy. Having said that, however, that does not mean that Muslims worship the God of Abraham with the correct understanding of who He is.”

Where on earth is this overly long thread going?

[GoLightly]

He didn't say we should take our differences to a Bishop or to a Priest or to a Deacon or to presbyters or to a hierarchy. There is no determination over which individual is correct in the dispute anywhere in that teaching. It is just not there.

We share the same foundation as you, but not the entire edifice.