Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?

Pennsylvania State University ^ | 03 August 2006 | Barbara Kennedy

[PatrickHenry]

The question of what happened before the Big Bang long has frustrated cosmologists, both amateur and professional.

Though Einstein's theory of general relativity does an excellent job of describing the universe almost back to its beginning, near the Big Bang matter becomes so dense that relativity breaks down, says Penn State physicist Abhay Ashtekar. "Beyond that point, we need to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein."

Now Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, have done just that. Using a theory called loop quantum gravity, they have developed a mathematical model that skates right up to the Big Bang -- and steps through it. On the other side, Ashtekar says, exists another universe with space-time geometry similar to our own, except that instead of expanding, it is shrinking. "In place of a classical Big Bang, there is in fact a quantum Bounce," he says.

Loop quantum gravity, one of the leading approaches to the unification of general relativity with quantum physics, was pioneered at the Institute of Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State, which Ashtekar directs. The theory posits that space-time geometry itself has a discrete "atomic" structure, Ashtekar explains. Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive.

While the idea of another universe existing prior to the Big Bang has been proposed before, he adds, this is the first mathematical description that systematically establishes its existence and deduces its space-time geometry.

"Our initial work assumes a homogenous model of our universe," Ashtekar acknowledges. "However, it has given us confidence in the underlying ideas of loop quantum gravity. We will continue to refine the model to better portray the universe as we know it and to better understand the features of quantum gravity."

***

Abhay Ashtekar is holder of the Eberly family chair in physics and director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry in the Eberly College of Science. He can be reached at ava1@psu.edu.

The finding reported above was published in Physical Review Letters in May 2006. The research was sponsored by the National Science Foundation, Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, and the Penn State Eberly College of Science.

[Dimensio]

So, gentlemen, do you believe there is a God?

This question is not relevant to an article discussing the Big Bang.

[Bryan24]

Sure it is.

Are the scientific types being intellectually honest about their theories?

You can hypothesize about multiple parallel universes that expand and contract, producing "Big Bangs" all day. But if you have eliminated God as an alternative, your "science" will turn into junk. You will reach a point of TRUTH, then turn away for a flawed "explanation" because of your belief that there is no God.

I would just like to know your underlying bias, one way or the other.

[pageonetoo]

You were the one who introduced the subject, when you used it to misrepresent Junior's argument. Your

Evidently, Junior...:

a. ...did not think it was an incorrect assumption, or...

b. ...didn't really think it worth a reply.

Since then, you have taken this obsessed authoritarianic position in order to berate me for posting to someone else about God.

I am a Christian. I have had the benefit of 58 years on earth, and varied elements of education. I have successfully owned and operated 7 businesses, and raised four out of fove of my children. I still have one at home. I see God's hand in every facet of our universe, observed and speculated.

I believe that God created all that is. I really don't have time to sit around and ponder my navel. As stated, I believe. It isn't necessary to my faith, to understand a quark, nor a placebo.

You believe that all happened by some unexplained process, or non-event. Your faith is placed in mathematics, theory, and dogma. Your high priests sacrifice to the sky gods with faulty o-rings and rocket fuel... hmmmmmm.

[PatrickHenry]

I donno where you guys are ultimately going, but this cosmology thread has gone straight to hell.

[Dimensio]

Sure it is.

Please explain how my belief or lack thereof in the existence of any deities affects evidence for the Big Bang.

Are the scientific types being intellectually honest about their theories?

Why do you ask? Do you have evidence that they are not?

You can hypothesize about multiple parallel universes that expand and contract, producing "Big Bangs" all day. But if you have eliminated God as an alternative, your "science" will turn into junk.

To which "God", out of the thousands of often mutually exclusive deities worshipped and acknowledged throughout human history and why do you reference that specific deity to the exclusion of all others?

You will reach a point of TRUTH, then turn away for a flawed "explanation" because of your belief that there is no God.

You are confusing a method that does not study deities with a method that explicitly states that no deities exist. As such, your conclusions are faulty. Moreover, you are assuming a conclusion, which is a logical fallacy.

[Dimensio]

How does this justify your misrepresentation of Junior's statement? If you did not misrepresent Junior's statement, then please explain how you deduced that Junior had claimed that "there is no God".

[pageonetoo]

Dimensio. Please do not ping me with your assinine quest to disprove something in which you apparently choose to refute or do not believe.

I did not post to you in the first place, and as stated, I have received no response from him. Go away and play with yourself!

I repeat, do not reply again. Your intelligence is not in question. Or, maybe it is!

[Bryan24]

What, are ya'll embarrassed to admit you are atheists? I don't get it.

I believe in God.

Do you believe in God? It is not a difficult question, is it?

I'm not gonna shoot you, no matter what answer you give.

[PatrickHenry]

What, are ya'll embarrassed to admit you are atheists? I don't get it. I believe in God. Do you believe in God? It is not a difficult question, is it?

This is not the religion forum, and you are not the Grand Inquisitor. Why don't you go to the proper forum and discuss your issues there?

[pageonetoo]

This is not the religion forum, and you are not the Grand Inquisitor. Why don't you go to the proper forum and discuss your issues there?

This is the proper forun for a discussion of the beginnins of the Universe. In my experience, there are far more folk who believe that this all happened as a result of the actions of a "Higher Power", and not just by random acts of molucar misdirection. It boggles my mind that you guys could be so "broad minded", yet so totally blind. Get over yourselves. It is central to any discussion of origin. Science can give its specualtions all the attention needed. Instead, you think your sematic games will demonstrate your vast knowledge and justify your self-delusions of righteous indignation.

Bryan, the best explanation I can give is that they would have to admit the "possibility" they could be wrong. Part of my education allowed me an introduction to theories of the human race called "Psychology". I have a fair idea about these folk... and their worship of mother earth.

You won't engage them about God. He must be proven to them. God will allow them to rot in their graves, as they tell us, "that is all, folks!"

[LibWhacker]

...how did something explode from nothing?

It always helps to read the article:

Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive.

[Bryan24]

I guess I am to deduce that Jim Robinson made you the "anti-God" forum police.

FYI, there is no 'Godless Science' forum. In fact, there is no 'Science' forum.

It's a simple request. Why can't they answer the question?

One other thing, probably 90%+ of the people in this country believe that God had some hand in the beginnings of the universe. I'd venture a guess that number is even higher among conservatives.

Why do a few of you insist on berating, belittling and scoffing at anyone professing a belief in God and continually try to run them out of any science thread?

You do not have a monopoly on scientific opinion nor scientific fact.

One last thing. If you want to be the big frog in the pond, ask Jim Robinson to create a Science forum. You can bloviate to your heart's content over there. But until then, you don't own the threads dealing with Science/God/Intelligent Design/Creation/Evolution.

I believe God had a hand in creating this universe we observe and that some of the answers people are looking for can be found in God. It is not your place to declare any science thread "God-Free".

Again, for the FIFTH time, Junior, Dimensio, do you believe in God?

[Dimensio]

Please do not ping me with your assinine quest to disprove something in which you apparently choose to refute or do not believe.

I am attempting to disprove nothing. My first posting to you here was a question, not an attempted disproof. It appears as though your responses have no relevance to the statements to which you are responding.

[Dimensio]

I believe in God.

To which "God" do you refer? The name "God" has been applied to numerous deity constructs, many of which are mutually exclusive.

Do you believe in God? It is not a difficult question, is it?

I lack belief in all thus-far proposed deities, but this has no relevance whatsoever to a discussion of the Big Bang.

[pageonetoo]

Do you believe in God, or you deny His existence? To be specific, I am describing the Judeo-Christian God, the Creator, as we refer to Him.

Why is it such an affront to you , that some ome us wish to include Him in the dialogue.

Any suppostion on your part is equally suspect!

What part of don't ping me, don't you understand? Your question should be posed elsewhere. I will reply to your answer to my questions.

[RightWhale]

Amazing that this cosmology thread survived so long. I was hoping for some discussion of the proposed model. It has happened in previous cosmology threads, although not recently. You never know, it could happen again some day.

[Dimensio]

Do you believe in God, or you deny His existence? To be specific, I am describing the Judeo-Christian God, the Creator, as we refer to Him.

I have anwered that question in post #214. I fail to see what relevance your question has to a discussion of the Big Bang.

Do you believe in God, or you deny His existence? To be specific, I am describing the Judeo-Christian God, the Creator, as we refer to Him.

I do not consider it an "affront". Why do you believe this?

[Bryan24]

"I lack belief in all thus-far proposed deities, but this has no relevance whatsoever to a discussion of the Big Bang."

There now, that didn't hurt so bad, did it?

It has no relevance to YOU.

[pageonetoo]

I fail to see what relevance your question has to a discussion of the Big Bang.

Your #214 aptly dismisses us and puts us in our place, right?

Yet, any discussion of what happened before the "big bang"is open season for the inclusion of God into the dialogue. A rational person probably wouldn't be so defensive about it. But, like most in the science community, you already know everything, and no other beleif system will be a substitute and your mantras are trial balloons.

You are williMost are willing to describe life, but have no idea where it comes from. "Scientists" decifer DNA and think THEY are God

The jokes on you, friends... You are a blip on the radar to God! No matter how much you try to dispel the notion, He died for your sins, just like He did for mine. It's not up to me to convince you. The Holy Spirit can do that. Of course, a hardened heart is as tough as a walnut to crack!

Give us a break, and try arguing your position, rather than trying to exclude others... or are you too afraid you may be wrong.

[Dimensio]

Yet, any discussion of what happened before the "big bang"is open season for the inclusion of God into the dialogue.

This is not true for a scientific analysis. Any actions of any deity are by definition are outside of the realm of scientific inquiry. Science is an inappropriate and inadequate tool for detecting and studying such events.

The jokes on you, friends... You are a blip on the radar to God! No matter how much you try to dispel the notion, He died for your sins, just like He did for mine. It's not up to me to convince you. The Holy Spirit can do that. Of course, a hardened heart is as tough as a walnut to crack!

This statement, whether true or false, has no relevance to the Big Bang. I find it curious than you assert that I am "obsessed" with God, yet it is you who has injected the subject, in great detail, into this discussion.