Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical

Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 27 December 2005 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

Folks, my blogger colleague, Oswald Sobrino of Catholic Analysis, has written a good essay regarding "Mariology," that is, the theological study and liturgical recognition of the place of Mary, the Mother of the Lord, the Theotokos, in the economy of salvation. It is entitled Mariology is Biblical. Here's an extract:

One of the great stumbling blocks for our Protestant brethren who are on the verge of crossing the Tiber, i.e., entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, is the great attention paid to the Mother of Jesus by Catholics. This hesitation is understandable: Protestantism is a reaction against Catholicism, and one of the reactions has been, historically, to exile the Mother of Jesus from salvation history. In recent times, some Protestants have sought to correct this strange exile of the Mother of God by looking back to the writings of the Church Fathers and to the early ecumenical councils, especially the fifth century Council of Ephesus. Yet, even Catholics can have a hard time responding to the insistent Protestant plea that to venerate Mary is to somehow detract from the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

...

The crux of the matter is that Mary's extraordinary mediation as Mother of Jesus derives from and is included in the unique mediatorship of Christ himself. What we ask our Protestant brethren to consider prayerfully, and, yes, quite biblically, is that the mediatorship of Christ is inclusive and admits of and even insists upon our participation. If we participate, as Paul did, then certainly the one whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus termed the "Mother of God" or "God-bearer" in 431 A.D. does also. Interestingly, today, even some conservative evangelical Protestant scholars openly refer to Mary as "Mother of God" based on the significance they ascribe to the Council of Ephesus. They are discovering the riches of the faith preserved for them through the centuries preceding the Reformation by none other than the Catholic Church.

- I urge all of you to read the entire piece at Catholic Analysis.

[Frank Sheed]

Play nice, Lass!

Frank

[netmilsmom]

hehehehe!

Okay.

[Buggman]

Okay, let me address some points in your post #19 first:

You will notice in the icons of the Theotokos, that Mary always points to Jesus.

As I look at the icon which you have selected, I see I giant Mary cradling a diminutive Jesus. How exactly is that demonstrating His exaltation above her?

As for the testimony provided, no number of anectdotes changes the fact that this

is bowing down to a graven image.

On to your more immediate post:

Pictures and statues are only idols when you bow down to them,

Agreed. God does allow religious art. However, note that when one such work of art, one that God Himself commanded be made, one which was in fact an icon of the Messiah on the Cross, became an object of worship, it had to be destroyed:

[Hezekiah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent which Moses had made; for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it. And he called it Nehushtan (lit. "a piece of brass"). He trusted in the LORD God of Israel, and after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. For he clung to the LORD. He did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses. (2 Ki. 18:4-6)

Note too that in the case of the Ark, God was very specific that Israel would not pray to, honor, or perform any other act of worship to the cherubim, but to the empty space between them. "And I will meet with you there, and I will talk with you from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim on the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the sons of Israel." (Exo. 25:22, cf. 2 Ki. 19:15)

And as I pointed out in my previous post, when Israel made the golden calf, even though they were still worshipping the God who was still visible on the mountain above them, God nearly destroyed them in His wrath.

seeing it as divine or living in any way, or having any power in any way;

By that standard, there is no such thing as an idolater in the whole world, since every pagan will argue that the statue itself merely symbolizes rather than encapsulates their gods.

All devotions to Mary and the saints ultimately glorify their Creator, who made them what they are.

I can just envision the Israelites claiming that worshipping Ashtoreh, Ba'al, Molech, and the other gods that they put in the Lord's Temple's courtyard (symbolically, putting them under Him) saying the same thing. Yet God still tore 10 tribes away from Solomon for that sin, didn't He?

Could we possibly praise the Mona Lisa without praising Leonardo DaVinci?

Would you pray to the Mona Lisa to get Leonard DaVinci's attention? Or, if you lived in 1500 and he had given you permission to come into his workshop any time you wanted, would you not go speak to the master himself rather than his creations?

Is God any less worthy of respect than Leonardo?

Even so, Mary is God's great masterpiece, and all praise given to her is praise of Her Maker.

On the contrary, the prayers of devout Catholics which I have already posted and many dozens of others that I have not are the equivalent of praising the Mona Lisa, not for painting herself, but for painting Leonardo into existence. One can certainly praise a work of art and thereby praise the artist--but it is also possible, and patently absurd, to praise the art for attributes that only the artist has. No one would praise the Mona Lisa as the co-painter of "The Last Supper," for example. Nor would they claim that the Mona Lisa loved them more than Leo (unless Leo really, really hated them, anyway).

Why then do Catholics attribute to Mary a role in Yeshua's redemption of the human race beyond giving birth to and raising Him? Why do Catholics claim that Mary is more approchable, and therefore loves them more, than God?

If that disturbs you too, good. Go clean up your own house before inviting others to live in it.

[Uri’el-2012]

They seem to worship the created not the creator of the universe.

[Frank Sheed]

Why then do Catholics attribute to Mary a role in Yeshua's redemption of the human race beyond giving birth to and raising Him?

Read what you just wrote here and think about it seriously. If you can't see the conundrum in what you just wrote, we can stop discussions here. To wit: she gave birth to Him! Is that not a good enough start for a virginal Jewish woman who put her total faith and trust in God in response to the request carried by an angel?

[Pyro7480]

They seem to worship the created not the creator of the universe.

The key word there is "seem." No serious Catholic thinks images of the saints or Jesus are the actual "real deal." No saint has power of their own, other than that of their prayers. All is done in accordance with the Will of God.

The real issue, and the truth, is that post-Luther Christians worship God only by word and song, when higher worship, the Divine Liturgy (or Mass in the Western Christian tradition), is due the Holy and Undivided Trinity.

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.catholic.com/seminars/moss.asp

These folks could learn a lot from Rosalind Moss who is often on EWTN. She is an excellent speaker who is able to marry her Judaism with her Hebrew Catholic faith.

[Frank Sheed]

Also Roy Schoeman:

http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/

[Buggman]

Re: My supposed heresy, you might try arguing from a source of authority that I actually recognize, like the Bible. Can you show that anything I've said is Biblically or logically inaccurate?

Further, can you answer my charge that by making Mary the mother of the Messiah's God-nature, you make her a goddess and He no longer Eternal?

If the answer to both questions is wrong, then it is you, not I, who are in a state of heresy.

As for Nestorianism, I do not claim that Yeshua was two persons, but that He had two natures, or essences--which you yourself admit. The human nature, the mortal body, had a point of origin in time and space, that being the womb of Mary. The God nature, which I would generally associate with His Mind (Soul) and Spirit, is Eternal, having neither beginning nor end, and did not come from Mary. Thus, Mary is the mother of the Messiah, the living, visible embodiment of the invisible God, but not the mother of God.

Much of what we know of the Trinity was derived from John's Gospel by Christ Himself in His own words.

My friend, the Trinity is all over the Bible, if you know where to look. Again, what has this to do with the subject of Marian worship?

How do you know what she called Him during His days on earth?

I wasn't referring to His days on the earth. I'm referring to Him in the here and now. And if David His father calls Him "Lord," against all propriety in Biblical thought, then so does Mary.

[Buggman]

No serious Catholic thinks images of the saints or Jesus are the actual "real deal."

No serious Hindu thinks that images of Shiva, Kali, or Vishnu are the actual "real deal" either. In fact, in modern Hindu theology, they're all just incarnations of the Brahman, or God, when you get right down to it.

Yet we still call bowing down in front of a statue of Vishnu idolatry . . .

[Buggman]

You might try picking a passage which refers to a time a bit later than when He was twelve years old. As a child living under the Torah, He honored and obeyed His earthly parents. As the Resurrected Lord, they honor and obey Him and call Him Lord, just as David does.

[Buggman]

Assume for a moment that some Catholics become extreme in their veneration of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Does that error refute that the name of Mary is blessed any more than, say, the extremism of some Protestants refutes that Jesus is holy?

The last part of your second sentence is the very definition of a strawman.

For the rest, assume that is so, and go clean up your own house before you try to invite others into it.

[Mr. Lucky]

"...go clean up you own house...

...and just which house would that be?

[Mr. Lucky]

"...go clean up you own house...

...and just which house would that be?

[Hieronymus]

Mariology is the study of Mary (As Biology is the study of life)

Mariolotry (which is not what this article or the Church advocate) is the worship of Mary)

Three letters make a lot of difference.

[Titanites]

The Catholic defense that "We're not really worshipping the statue or the saint, but the God behind the saint" is irrelevant. When Israel sinned by making the golden calf, it didn't matter that they were still worshipping the God who had led them out of Egypt (in Exo. 32:4-55, after making the calf, Aaron says, "These are your gods (Heb. Eloheyk, lit. 'Here is your God,' as the term "God" is nearly a plural Hebrew word when speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt . . . Tomorrow is a feast to YHVH," thus proving that the idolatry was meant to honor God.

The difference is that they worshipped the golden calf and sacrificed to it and said "this is your God". The Catholic Church explicitly prohibits prayer to or worship of images.

[Pyro7480]

No serious Hindu thinks that images of Shiva, Kali, or Vishnu are the actual "real deal" either. In fact, in modern Hindu theology, they're all just incarnations of the Brahman, or God, when you get right down to it.

That's not a one-for-comparison, since the Hindus believe their false gods have actual powers over the elements. The saints, other than prayer, have no such power, as I mentioned before.

[P-Marlowe]

I think this would be a good thread to avoid.

[Pyro7480]

Ah, but you're not being Biblical either. There's no post-Resurrection passage that has them calling Him only Lord. I can play your game too.

[netmilsmom]

>> No serious Hindu thinks that images of Shiva, Kali, or Vishnu are the actual "real deal" either. In fact, in modern Hindu theology, they're all just incarnations of the Brahman, or God, when you get right down to it.

Yet we still call bowing down in front of a statue of Vishnu idolatry . . .<<

I know Hindus and I'm sorry but you are mistaken. The Hindus I know pray TO each of those Gods. They don't pray WITH each of them.

Again, Catholics NEVER pray, Holy Mary, Have mercy on us.
We say, Holy Mother, Pray for Us.

You just haven't been around enough Catholics. We'll help you here.

God Bless!