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To: NYer; P-Marlowe; xzins
Okay, let me address some points in your post #19 first:

You will notice in the icons of the Theotokos, that Mary always points to Jesus.

As I look at the icon which you have selected, I see I giant Mary cradling a diminutive Jesus. How exactly is that demonstrating His exaltation above her?

As for the testimony provided, no number of anectdotes changes the fact that this

is bowing down to a graven image.

On to your more immediate post:

Pictures and statues are only idols when you bow down to them,

Agreed. God does allow religious art. However, note that when one such work of art, one that God Himself commanded be made, one which was in fact an icon of the Messiah on the Cross, became an object of worship, it had to be destroyed:

[Hezekiah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent which Moses had made; for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it. And he called it Nehushtan (lit. "a piece of brass"). He trusted in the LORD God of Israel, and after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. For he clung to the LORD. He did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses. (2 Ki. 18:4-6)
Note too that in the case of the Ark, God was very specific that Israel would not pray to, honor, or perform any other act of worship to the cherubim, but to the empty space between them. "And I will meet with you there, and I will talk with you from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim on the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the sons of Israel." (Exo. 25:22, cf. 2 Ki. 19:15)

And as I pointed out in my previous post, when Israel made the golden calf, even though they were still worshipping the God who was still visible on the mountain above them, God nearly destroyed them in His wrath.

seeing it as divine or living in any way, or having any power in any way;

By that standard, there is no such thing as an idolater in the whole world, since every pagan will argue that the statue itself merely symbolizes rather than encapsulates their gods.

All devotions to Mary and the saints ultimately glorify their Creator, who made them what they are.

I can just envision the Israelites claiming that worshipping Ashtoreh, Ba'al, Molech, and the other gods that they put in the Lord's Temple's courtyard (symbolically, putting them under Him) saying the same thing. Yet God still tore 10 tribes away from Solomon for that sin, didn't He?

Could we possibly praise the Mona Lisa without praising Leonardo DaVinci?

Would you pray to the Mona Lisa to get Leonard DaVinci's attention? Or, if you lived in 1500 and he had given you permission to come into his workshop any time you wanted, would you not go speak to the master himself rather than his creations?

Is God any less worthy of respect than Leonardo?

Even so, Mary is God's great masterpiece, and all praise given to her is praise of Her Maker.

On the contrary, the prayers of devout Catholics which I have already posted and many dozens of others that I have not are the equivalent of praising the Mona Lisa, not for painting herself, but for painting Leonardo into existence. One can certainly praise a work of art and thereby praise the artist--but it is also possible, and patently absurd, to praise the art for attributes that only the artist has. No one would praise the Mona Lisa as the co-painter of "The Last Supper," for example. Nor would they claim that the Mona Lisa loved them more than Leo (unless Leo really, really hated them, anyway).

Why then do Catholics attribute to Mary a role in Yeshua's redemption of the human race beyond giving birth to and raising Him? Why do Catholics claim that Mary is more approchable, and therefore loves them more, than God?

If that disturbs you too, good. Go clean up your own house before inviting others to live in it.

43 posted on 12/27/2005 4:20:02 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Buggman

They seem to worship the created not the creator of the universe.


44 posted on 12/27/2005 4:25:49 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in the LORD for ever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: Buggman; netmilsmom; NYer
Why then do Catholics attribute to Mary a role in Yeshua's redemption of the human race beyond giving birth to and raising Him?

Read what you just wrote here and think about it seriously. If you can't see the conundrum in what you just wrote, we can stop discussions here. To wit: she gave birth to Him! Is that not a good enough start for a virginal Jewish woman who put her total faith and trust in God in response to the request carried by an angel?

45 posted on 12/27/2005 4:31:15 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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