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Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]
Fox News | 12/20/05

Posted on 12/20/2005 7:54:38 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: biology; creation; crevolist; dover; education; evolution; intelligentdesign; keywordpolice; ruling; scienceeducation
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To: metmom; xzins

The Church of the Quadrennial Statement.


2,621 posted on 12/23/2005 8:55:01 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: donh
unless you think the evidence for UFO's, crop circles, crystal healing, Bigfoot and Nessie, also qualifies for classroom space.

LOL, that would have made for an interesting science class!

(Seriously, there is a current search for a North American primate in the Cascades - Bigfoot?)

There is no abstract DNA-ness that can be converted to a silicon template in a manner I can imagine.

Yes, silicon is far out. DNA is clearly bound in the H-C complex.

DNA produces highly organized protoplasm that carries out processes of life. Science would have us believe that DNA self-assembled at some point in time, and the molecule accidentally acted as a factory to produce other molecules that just happened to work together to serve and protect the DNA. And as these other molecules went about their duties, they accidentally fashioned a wide variety of structures and mechanisms that gave these bags of protoplasm the ability to move around, interact, and eventually, think and discover facts about the universe. And further, the protoplasm organized the DNA (or the DNA organized the protoplasm) such that the blueprint for an individual could be passed on. Fantastic!

2,622 posted on 12/23/2005 8:56:40 PM PST by GregoryFul
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
You forgot the Miracle on Ice (1980). :)

Now that you mentioned it, that reminds me of something I've been wondering about. Does anyone know if there is a copy of the game on video or DVD to be had anywhere? My son has been searching for it with no success and would really like to see the original game.

2,623 posted on 12/23/2005 8:59:25 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"Judge: ACLU not 'reasonable Court whacks civil-liberties group, OKs Ten Commandments display"

I don't want to read another thread. I'm spending more time than I had intended on this thread. If you have an argument, please go ahead. Comprehensive separation of church and state was clearly an original intent. Read the Federalist State Papers, and the correspondences between the 1st amendments framers: Jefferson and Madison, if you have doubts. In addition, the post-civil war amendments quite clearly restrict state and local governments to recognize rights established in the Bill of Rights. The argument that the states can, in fact, establish religions because some had done so when the constitution was written is fairly dopey logic, which could be used to justify slavery and anti-sufferage, to begin with, and at any rate, does not survive the 3 post-civil war amendments.

2,624 posted on 12/23/2005 9:03:58 PM PST by donh
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To: donh
I don't care enough to hold you "accountable".

LOL. You also don't care much about freedom.

2,625 posted on 12/23/2005 9:06:15 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: beaver fever

I always hated the kids who ruined the curve. What nerve, too; messing with the curve and not even bothering to show up for class.


2,626 posted on 12/23/2005 9:09:53 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GregoryFul
Science would have us believe that DNA self-assembled at some point in time, and the molecule accidentally acted as a factory to produce other molecules that just happened to work together to serve and protect the DNA

No, science would not have us believe that. See the works of Woese for a more accurate picture of what science thinks. Instantaneous abiogensis is a creationist boogyman, not an actual holding of modern science.

2,627 posted on 12/23/2005 9:12:51 PM PST by donh
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To: jwalsh07
LOL. You also don't care much about freedom.

I see, I oppose the thesis that states CAN, in fact, establish religious authority and preference for specific sects in individual states, and I am the opponent of freedom. Indeed.

2,628 posted on 12/23/2005 9:15:31 PM PST by donh
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To: P-Marlowe
English is also required, so why don't you diagram that statement for the class.

Your chart list biology as required for freshman admission to a specific university. Not graduation from high school.

2,629 posted on 12/23/2005 9:18:00 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: donh

Indeed, you're just another in a long line of libertarians who would use the courts to spread your gospel. The type who gives more authority to nebulous 'motivations' than to actions. But why would you care what I think?


2,630 posted on 12/23/2005 9:19:01 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: metmom

The real kicker is that he sat down and had lunch with me and wanted to talk about Philosophy after he quit Mathematics.

One of the times he showed up in Linear Algebra the professor was writing a complicated proof on the blackboard. This guy gets up and picks the prof's proof apart and cuts it down to five steps with a simple sub proof.

I felt like one of the apes in 2001: A Space Odyssey, reaching up and touching the Black Object with no clue what it meant.

After that class I felt like getting drunk but it was only 11:30 in the morning.


2,631 posted on 12/23/2005 9:22:41 PM PST by beaver fever
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To: donh; P-Marlowe
I didn't expect you to read the whole thread, which is only a mere 101 posts long, but just the artcle which is short. This is what P-Marlowe was referring to. Here are some exerpts:
Writing for the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge Richard Suhrheinrich said the ACLU's "repeated reference 'to the separation of church and state' ... has grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state." Suhrheinrich wrote: "The ACLU, an organization whose mission is 'to ensure that ... the government [is kept] out of the religion business,' does not embody the reasonable person."

"Third, the ACLU erroneously–though perhaps intentionally–equates recognition with endorsement. To endorse is necessarily to recognize, but the converse does not follow. Cf. Mercer County, 219 F. Supp. 2d at 789 (“Endorsement of religion is a normative concept; whereas acknowledgment of religion is not necessarily a value-laden concept.”).

2,632 posted on 12/23/2005 9:25:32 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: jwalsh07
Indeed, you're just another in a long line of libertarians who would use the courts to spread your gospel.

The Gospel of libertarianism is that the state has no right whatsoever to teach anyone anything at any time. I believe when they said "libertine" you heard "libertarian" and panic set in.

The type who gives more authority to nebulous 'motivations' than to actions. But why would you care what I think?

Libertarianism entails no position whatsoever on the place of motivation in court procedure. Libertarian doesn't mean "liberal" either.

Not that I am one, particularly, but I do know that libertarian doesn't mean "whatever I don't like", libertarianism has a specific, and severely limited notion of what the state may do. Substantially more limited than that of most strict constructionists, in fact.

2,633 posted on 12/23/2005 9:30:23 PM PST by donh
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To: js1138
Your chart list biology as required for freshman admission to a specific university. Not graduation from high school.

Another fly in the honeytrap. Look closer.

2,634 posted on 12/23/2005 9:36:08 PM PST by donh
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To: beaver fever

LOL. That's how I felt with Math. As a matter of fact, I feel that way with my oldest daughter when she starts talking string theory and quantum physics and computer geek at me. I just stare at her. Can't figure out where she came from.

My son is having trouble with a high school geometry teacher right now because the way he learned math, using Saxon Math, is different than what she teaches. She actually told him that if he did the problems his way instead of hers, she would mark it wrong even if the answer is right. So one day it was his turn to do a problem at the board, does it his way, and she tries to show the class how this student did it wrong and can't get the right answer using this method....oops. I'm beginning to wonder how much this has to do with his 15 week grade...


2,635 posted on 12/23/2005 9:38:41 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: donh
You have just spent considerable time arguing that locals should not control local issues and advocating federal intervention based on 'motivation'. I consider that using the courts to spread your gospel whatever the heck your gospel is.

There is nothing conservative about federal courts meedling in the affairs of local school boards. So you're not a conservative, you're not a libertarian and I guess you said you're phiosophy is not libertine.

No matter, whatever you're ideology is it includes using federal courts as a hammer to bludgeon your ideoligcal opponents based on your interpretation of their motivations.

Quite similar to the ACLU actually.

2,636 posted on 12/23/2005 9:41:17 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: donh; metmom
Comprehensive separation of church and state was clearly an original intent. Read the Federalist State Papers...

Really? I could not find that discussion anywhere in the Federalist Papers. Help me out here. Which Federalist Paper are you talking about?

2,637 posted on 12/23/2005 10:04:15 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe; donh

Out for the night; check the discussion in the morning *placemarker*

If I don't connect, Merry Christmas.


2,638 posted on 12/23/2005 10:18:03 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Virginia-American; CarolinaGuitarman; Dimensio; eleni121
eleni121 what is going on?

Obviously this issue (of Doctoral thesis on Pilltdown man) is very impotrant to Virginia, Guitarman, Dimensio. They have spent so much energy asking the answers.

And now it is ready to be delivered, if only they can answer a few things.

Virginia, Guitarman, Dimensio.. I am calling to you. Come back, come back, don't run off. I am ready to give it to you when you can answer these questions..

Do you assert that there are no, zero, nada, none, PHD thesis based on Pilltdown man?

Is it your assertion that number of thesis on Pilltdown man is not exactly 500?

Finally you need to say here what constitutes 'evidence' or 'proof' to existence of thesis based on Pilltdown man would be to you.

Slavering Wolf awaits.
2,639 posted on 12/23/2005 10:22:13 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: jwalsh07
You have just spent considerable time arguing that locals should not control local issues and advocating federal intervention based on 'motivation'. I consider that using the courts to spread your gospel whatever the heck your gospel is.

It seems a little like a tough sell to claim I am using the courts to "spread my gospel", because I continue to insist that it is proper only to teach science in science classes.

There is nothing conservative about federal courts meedling in the affairs of local school boards. So you're not a conservative, you're not a libertarian and I guess you said you're phiosophy is not libertine.

If I am green slime from jupiter, it still doesn't affect the question of whether or not I have an argument, although it does make for a keen distraction.

No matter, whatever you're ideology is it includes using federal courts as a hammer to bludgeon your ideoligcal opponents based on your interpretation of their motivations.

Good grief. The Dover schoolboard lied about ID as a viable science to students, lied about their reason for lying, and lied about being aided and abetted by their local church in doing so.

I'd say this is a palpable demonstration of why we have a high wall of separation. You couldn't trust religious zealouts with even the most minor of public offices unchecked by that wall in 1400, and things haven't changed much. Motivation matters very much, because it is pretty easy to cover up religious predation on the public domain with miles of verbiage and mis-direction--like in the Dover case, for example, if the court is willing to play 3-monkeys, and ignore painfully obvious predations on the constitution, because of some quixotic reluctance to acknowledge motivation.

If the catholics take over the state of massachusatts, and require all residents to pay 10 percent of their income to the local "civic improvement society", which happens to have nuns and priests for officers, crosses and confessionals for lobby decorations, and symposiums that seem suspiciously like sermons, is the supreme court supposed to continue to insist that motivation means nothing?

Quite similar to the ACLU actually.

As opposed to the outstandingly fair, open, and judicious track record of religious bodies like the inquisition, or the church that provided the "Panda" book in the Dover case, for example.

2,640 posted on 12/23/2005 10:22:27 PM PST by donh
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