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Pope Set To Return To Traditional Liturgy
Web India ^ | June 20,2005 | Web India staff

Posted on 06/19/2005 9:33:26 PM PDT by Lady In Blue

Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-

VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST


Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.

Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.

Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.

Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.

Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.

Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.

(UPI)


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KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicmass; popebenedict
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To: Pio

Yes. At least in a Latin mass English and Spanish speakers can sit in the same congregation without anyone feeling totally left out.


261 posted on 06/21/2005 11:03:36 AM PDT by RobbyS (chirho)
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To: BlackElk; rwfromkansas

>> TC: RW complains about Latin being used in our Church (which is not RW's) while having problems with English which is rumored to be the conventional spoken language in Kansas. <<

Actually, I took a different understanding of "Screw the commoners and pissants! Here, Here!" I thought he was directing them.

(Sorry, RW... Couldn't joke about you behind your back.)


262 posted on 06/21/2005 11:07:21 AM PDT by dangus
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To: ninenot; Religion Moderator

Would ninenot please clarify for the edification of all exactly what he means by Bugger in the reference to Archbishop Bugnini?


263 posted on 06/21/2005 11:16:59 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: rwfromkansas; onyx; Lady In Blue; Petronski
My parents brought me up to have manners. We were not to impose our political or religious views on the unwilling. If you want to evangelize, go talk to a pagan world to come to the halfway point home which you may have reached. Since Catholics are all the way home (ecclesiastically), we need not the advice of buttinskis not of the fold. I will be here as long as I please as probably will you.

That does not mean that I have some obligation to make believe that your "biblical insights" as a heretic are at all relevant to Catholic theology much less the internal governance of our Church. If you are not a member of the team, please do not steal a uniform that is not yours to try to be in the lineup.

If you are free on a discussion forum to discuss what you manifestly misunderstand (else you would be a Catholic and not a Calvinist), then those of us who actually ARE CATHOLIC will feel free to tell you that your opinions are impertinent, uninformed and unwanted. Any problem?????

Do you have opinions also on what my family should have for dinner tonight without an invitation to join us? As to what color we should use to cover our house. Should my next business shirt be white, blue or otherwise? Any wisdom to impose as to what make of car I should drive? In short, who died and left you God????? Go to your nearest "scriptural" mutual congratulation society meeting and thank God you were not, ummmmm, "predestined" to be Catholic.

What is he purpose of talk as you describe it. One party possesses the fullness of Christian Truth. The other party does not but thinks he/she does. You are no more interested in compromising than is any genuine Catholic. Nor should any Catholic be interested in compromising. If you think that the biblical "insights" of anyone with a bible, reading lessons and an agenda is on some sort of playing field in some sort of legitimate contest with Christ's own Catholic Church, you are wrong on that too. There is NOTHING to argue about. You want to pick off poorly catechized stragglers. I don't want you to do that. No more, no less.

264 posted on 06/21/2005 11:20:41 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: rwfromkansas

You should, then re-red your #66 which says so in the last paragraph unless you are suggesting that Tridentine Masses might be said in Latin in whichever church (if any) you attend, which, since you are said to be a Calvinist, I rather doubt.


265 posted on 06/21/2005 11:25:21 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Luddite Patent Counsel

I don't insist on dialogue with them. Unless they start attacking Holy Mother the Church, papal authority, or butting their unwanted noses into Catholic business, I prefer to igtnore them. I will certainly join them in pro-life activity or anti-homosexuality activity or any number of other secular issues. Catholics have nothing to learn from heretics or schismatics as to religion that cannot be better learned from the Teaching Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church (HQd in the Vatican).


266 posted on 06/21/2005 11:29:36 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: TaxachusettsMan

Nope.


267 posted on 06/21/2005 11:37:04 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
Your last sentence reveals His communication of love to you and bears repeating as often as possible

Thank you. At last, a little understanding around here.

I'm reading The Unknown God, by Alister McGrath, an Episcopal theologian. 120 pages long, it's taking me months to read and digest. And when I'm finished, I'm going to write it in a different form. Which, of course, would involve owning the material--a sort of personal confirmation of Christ in my life. The last spiritual book I wrote basically said that all religions are great. Sold more than 300,000 copies, left me not quite happy with that good result.

As you said,
The Mass of our ancestors said in the language used for the Masses of our ancestors is the high mark of our civilization

That's the sticking point for me. A big fan of Western civilization, I can't deny the influence of the Catholic Church on that endeavor, the greatest in human history.

Meanwhile, as I mentally quibble the fine points, another planet has been created somewhere in the universe

Just as the human eye cannot cope with the brilliance of the sun, so the human mind cannot cope with the full glory of God.
Alister McGrath
The Unknown God,
Searching for Spiritual Fulfilment

268 posted on 06/21/2005 11:46:22 AM PDT by Veto! (Opinions freely dispensed as advice)
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To: Regina
If I have you mixed up with someone else who evaporated off theis site upon being, well, criticized, leaving behind an apologist to sniffle over her departure, then you have my apology. If you are not in the SSPX schism, likewise. That some may regard JP II as a less than stellar administrator is a mere matter of opinion. The conventional wisdom and the verdict of history are likely to disagree with that assessment.

No one says he was perfect. He was, however, John Paul the Great. If you disagree, I would suggest that you will find easier and more valid targets in Benedict XV (1914-1922), John XXIII and Paul VI and that your memory may not be long enough to remember the bad old days of the 1960s. Most open criticism of JP II by those claiming Catholicism comes from SSPXers who are permanently angry over his application of justice to their heroes and to their schism. Most Catholics were more than satisfied. The schismatics were not.

If one is attacked as schismatic (i.e., an adherent of schismatic SSPX), it is sufficien to apologize if the info were wrong but reasonably founded. In the event that the target were schismatic, kindness is NOT owed to the performer of the usual dance of the schismatic pretending to be Catholic because the pope was wrong because_________(fill in the blank)__________. The pope sits in earthly judgment on us and not we on him. Examine your own conscience. Meanwhile, I will take your word for it in the absnce of further proof.

269 posted on 06/21/2005 11:48:48 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
Are you taking a poll?

Do you have opinions also on what my family should have for dinner tonight without an invitation to join us?

If I am not eating there, it should be liver.

As to what color we should use to cover our house.

Mauve.

Should my next business shirt be white, blue or otherwise?

If you like striped pants, use a plaid shirt.

Any wisdom to impose as to what make of car I should drive?

I think we should make you buy a Hummer, do I get to pick out spinner hubcaps?

In short, who died and left you God?

oops nevermind. (I couldn't help it BlackElk)

There is NOTHING to argue about. You want to pick off poorly catechized stragglers.

This is the MO of some protestants who post in a Catholic thread and argue issue of theology. Sure you are welcome to tell us how a Baptist believes, and we will tell you what the Church teaches. The different is the difference between a belief that no person HAS to believe and a teaching of the Church which is definitively and universally held. Of course all are welcome to come in here and chime in, in good faith.

As Catholics, we believe there is the authority of God behind the decisions of the Church. Supernatural efforts of God keep the Catholic Church on the right path, through Popes who were total idiots and reprobates, with bad Bishops, and bad Priests, through the superstitions of the ages, down to the hyper modernism of today. In short, the Church itself is miraculous, having sustained itself through two millennia.

To us it seems, a protestant would have us supplant that guarantee by making every man a Pope.
270 posted on 06/21/2005 11:52:40 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: TaxachusettsMan; ninenot

What on earth makes you imagine ninenot to be a schismatic????? I could be wrong, but I am having difficulty figuring out why you two guys are at odds. I know ninenot personally and I can say without reservation that he is nothing even vaguely resembling a schismatic (save for his allergy to 1950s popular music). A distaste for Buddy Holly does not a religious schism make. I am not personally acquainted with TaxachusettsMan but haven't seen anything from him suggesting schism, SSPX or otherwise. Am I wrong?


271 posted on 06/21/2005 12:01:05 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ninenot

Suggestive yes, but not definitive. :)


272 posted on 06/21/2005 12:16:42 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (The times are out of step with the Catholic Church. God Bless Pope Benedict XVI.)
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To: Lady In Blue

Help me out here. Why are Catholics so emotionally vested in a language that not one in ten of them can speak? Maybe it's just my protestant sensibilities, but I don't get the attraction to a service in a language you don't understand. Can someone explain this to me?


273 posted on 06/21/2005 12:28:02 PM PDT by Melas (Lives in state of disbelief)
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To: Melas

The missals were printed with one side in Latin and the other in the vernacular. It made for a Universal Mass, where anyone could attend Mass, and understand it be looking at the Missal.

Jews has services in Hebrew, do you fault that?


274 posted on 06/21/2005 12:30:52 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick

Hebrew is the national language of Israel. It's still spoken. Latin is a dead language. I'm not knocking the idea of a church service in Latin, I simply don't understand it.


275 posted on 06/21/2005 12:38:15 PM PDT by Melas (Lives in state of disbelief)
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To: Melas
Help me out here. Why are Catholics so emotionally vested in a language that not one in ten of them can speak? Maybe it's just my protestant sensibilities, but I don't get the attraction to a service in a language you don't understand. Can someone explain this to me?

I'll try and help.

1. I'm not sure if you come from a liturgical or non-liturgical protestant background but if it is a liturgical one then you know that many part of the liturgy are the same week after week. These become so familiar that you pretty much know what is happening even if you don't understand a word. I had this very experience in a Polish mass once.

2. Church Latin is failry easy to pick up, but easier for children than adults.

3. There is a sense of that something really special is going on when using a liturgical language, something that is not common.

4. The missals have a page by page English or vernacular translation on the page next to the Latin

5. Continuity. When using the pre-1970 rite you are worshipping near exactly as your anscestors did for atleast 500, probably 1500 years

6. The sermon and Gospel are read in English because as easy as it is to pick up the fixed parts in Latin, learning enough to translate a sermon would be something few in the pews could do.

Hope that helps.

276 posted on 06/21/2005 12:38:47 PM PDT by NeoCaveman (And our prisoners at Gitmo eat better than I do)
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To: Melas

Latin is still spoken as French, Italian, and Spanish. Israeli Hebrew is different from Synagogue Hebrew as I am told. In any case the official language of Vatican City is Latin.


277 posted on 06/21/2005 12:43:51 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: BlackElk

I cannot account for TaxMan's "logic."

I cannot account for his unalloyed admiration of the (now former) Papal MC/Liturgist, either.


278 posted on 06/21/2005 1:02:36 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: TattooedUSAFConservative

I know. But the suggestions are so, ah, definitive.

And I also know that that's the point: like excommunication, it's meant to make one think, very hard, about one's position.

OTOH, I do like seeing a few 'anathemas' tossed into a conversation.


279 posted on 06/21/2005 1:04:02 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

Oyez, oyez! Some days you're the spelling police, some days you're the windshield (or some sentiment to that effect.)


280 posted on 06/21/2005 1:04:13 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Children don't need counting, because whatever number you have, you never have enough.")
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