Pope Set To Return To Traditional Liturgy

Web India ^ | June 20,2005 | Web India staff

[Lady In Blue]

Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-

VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST

Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.

Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.

Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.

Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.

Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.

Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.

(UPI)

[Claud]

It does not work against the Sui Juris celebration of Mass in the vernacular, by other rites

Apologies, but I'm not sure what you mean by that, could you explain?

Also I don't believe how I cut and pasted it changed the sense at all, and it isn't comparable to your "communion under both kinds" example which is doing violence to the sense of the passage. I don't have the Latin in front of me, but the way I found it translated is as follows:

Canon 9.If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only; or that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice because it is contrary to the institution of Christ, let him be anathema.

The "contrary to the institution of Christ" part is referring to the chalice, not (as far as I can tell) the vernacular. That might not be the case in its original, I dunno--but I'm going with what I have with very clearly demarked semicolons.

I read the force of the anathema as being directly against those who think Mass should ONLY be celebrated in vernacular. Someone who think it is prudent in a given situation would not, naturally, fall under that--or else Ss. Cyril and Methodius would be heretics. :)

[rwfromkansas]

I don't concede your "church" to be the holy Church of Christ, no.

[TaxachusettsMan]

My history of the BCP is a bit rusty these days, but if I'm not mistaken, Myles Coverdale, a priest and contemporary "reformer" with Thomas Cranmer had prepared a translation of the Canon Missae for use in the emerging "vernacular Masses" being done - without ecclesiastical or royal sanction - around the time of the English Litany's publication (1544?). He it is, also, I believe, who did the version of the Psalms that ended up in the 1549 and subsequent BCPs (they are not the KJV).

Indeed, even in the BCP 1979 preliminary documentation, the revisors note that they are sticking with Coverdale (as the basis for their "inclusive language" revision) because he was translating FROM THE LATIN VULGATE and therefore the stophic lines were longer (and more adaptable to both Gregorian/Sarum and Anglican chant).

As I understand it, that Coverdale Canon is at least the basis for what shows up in those Anglo-Catholic "English Missals" (W. Knott & Son) of the early to mid 20th century - and, I could be very wrong on this - THAT becomes the basis for the Roman Canon translation that eventually went into the Book of Divine Worship.

If you haven't yet seen one, you really ought to track down a W. Knott English Missal - especially an altar edition (some older Episcopal priests have them) - complete with the entire Tridentine Ordo Missae, the Roman Canon in LATIN and English, all the prefaces set to Gregorian Chant, and all the Masses of the Missale Romanum including Ss John Fisher & Thomas More, Votive Mass "for the Election of the Chief Bishop" ("grant unto the holy Roman Church a Pontiff . . . ").

Amazing.

Makes you wonder: If they wanted a beautifully produced (text and layout) Missale Romanum in the vernacular, why didn't they just approve this?

[BlackElk]

Did JP II excommunicate Regina's heroes like Lefebvre in Ecclesia Dei whether Regina thinks so or not? Poor boodgums. You mean that awful old pope had the nerve to imagine himself the Vicar of Christ on Earth and to actively deter movements denying papal authority? If you should ever return to Catholicism, please let us know. Didn't you flee this website in the past over Catholics disagreeing with you????

[Claud]

Saying Mass from any Rite is always permitted, and a Priest can always offer Mass from any Missal, in private.

Dominick, are you sure about this? You mean a Roman Rite priest can say a Coptic divine liturgy, or something out of an old manuscript (Lorrha Missal) in private? And if he can do that, can he "cobble together" a liturgy in private?

[BlackElk]

We Catholics simply MUST remember to spend a nanosecond or two torn in agony over the fact that you find our practices detestable.

[Claud]

Truly fascinating! Thanks so much for the info! :)

[BlackElk]

TC: RW complains about Latin being used in our Church (which is not RW's) while having problems with English which is rumored to be the conventional spoken language in Kansas.

Can I get an AMEN? [Whoops! Amen is probably Hebrew! My error.]

[Romish_Papist]

"I don't concede your "church" to be the holy Church of Christ, no."

Good thing Truth exists regardless of your assent or lack thereof.

[rwfromkansas]

I should clarify I mean I don't assent to the idea that the RCC is the one true church and the rest of us are hell-bound.

[BlackElk]

Your last paragraph cannot be repeated too often. That is exactly how the liturgical restoration will occur. All we need is for Catholic people to be exposed to the Tridentine Mass and for it to be available everywhere and liturgical restoration will occur since the Novus Ordo has so very few charms by comparison.

[Dominick]

The "contrary to the institution of Christ" part is referring to the chalice, not (as far as I can tell) the vernacular. That might not be the case in its original, I dunno--but I'm going with what I have with very clearly demarked semicolons.

The way I read it:Canon 9.If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone,
(1) is to be condemned;
or
(2) that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only;
or
(3) that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice
[concluding]
because it is contrary to the institution of Christ, let him be anathema.

I read it as all three are contrary to the Institution of Christ, that is these things were not as Christ intended them. The punctuation usage in older texts doesn't lend itself to the meaning, for old documents. I see an "if because then" structure in most of the Trent Canons.

Vernacular Masses were celebrated well before the English and Protestant Schisms. No matter the correct or incorrect parsing that you and I hold to this Canon, I think the objection the commonly held protestant notion that Latin obscured the Mass and the rite and therefore that rite was invalid, not that Vernacular Mass was invalid. Note that it didn't say Vernacular Mass was invalid, but that the notion that Mass must be only in the vernacular.

It is not an issue for anyone familiar with the Mass to concede that the original language of the Mass was Greek. If rites were invalid in the vernacular, they would have never been done in Latin, the vernacular of Rome. In that case, since Trent was infallible the doctrine should not be a new one for the past and the present.

[Luddite Patent Counsel]

There is a reason: we don't really care how your church (if any) governs itself (if at all).

If we don't care what other churches do, why are we insisting on "dialogue" in the spirit of Vatican II? Certainly, there are easier ways to get lime jello recipes from the Minnesota Lutherans.

[ninenot]

Since VatII declared (rightly) that the 'Liturgy is the source and summit...' I can NOT think of "something more important to do."

Keep up with the actual documents of Vat II, not the zeitgeist...

[ninenot]

Ummmnnhh,

In Rome, the crowds are multi-national. Latin works for all people there, vs. English for the Aussies, and Amuhr-kin for the US folks.

More welcoming, you know...

[ninenot]

Magister was the one who "found" the REAL letter to McCarrick, exposing him as a liar.

There were only two possibilities: either McCarrick gave it to her...or the Holy Office.

You draw your own conclusions.

[ninenot]

Someday, you Calvinists may get off the pragmatism portion of your belief system...

[Luddite Patent Counsel]

Latin works for all people there, vs. English for the Aussies, and Amuhr-kin for the US folks.

Excellent point. If all Catholic Masses were the same rite and in Latin, we could have our missals in our various languages, and get rid of Spanish mass, Vietnamese mass, etc. etc., and have all Catholics worship in essentially the same way. You could walk into a Catholic church anywhere in the world, much less the same town, and recognize that you were actually attending Mass. How could you get any more welcoming than that? Who would have ever thought of such a great idea?

[ninenot]

We've seen your yappaflappa before, Tax-O.

Marini's done. Gone. Finis. Kaput.

Accept it.

[BikerNYC]

Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.

Choreogrpahy?

You do an eclectic celebration of the dance! You do Fosse Fosse Fosse Fosse Fosse! You do Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Martha Graham, or Twyla, Twyla, Twyla, or Michael Kidde, Michael Kidde, Michael Kidde, Michael Kidde, or Madonna, Madonna, Madonna, Madonna... but you keep it all inside.