Posted on 12/16/2004 1:23:28 PM PST by Gamecock
These passages show that man has a responsibility to God even before he is converted. If this is not the case, then the law written on their hearts, the Gentiles being a law to themselves, and other like passages have no meaning whatsoever. To the Hyper-Calvinist, men are only wicked, dead corpses which cannot think about, nor give heed to the revelation of God, which is an unexegetical position to hold in light of special revelation. The Hyper-Calvinist Objects: Hyper-Calvinism says this is logically inconsistent. How can fallen men be called to exercise faith without regeneration? This would seem as though God desires they repent while at the same time He does not give them the ability to repent. The Hyper-Calvinist thinks this is a contradiction, but it is not. What does the Hyper-Calvinist do when the Biblical passages are quoted? They enter into a “so-called” logical debate at the expense of being fair to the Bible’s statements about duty-faith. In essence, they simply deny it. What does the Bible state? What do the offers listed above show us about the call of God to the unsaved, whoever they may be. We are not squabbling over covenant and non-covenant people, but saved and lost people.
I agree with you Dr., that there is no such thing as a 'hyper-Calvinist'only Calvinists.
Calvinism is really about unconditional election vs conditional election.
Yet, what Calvinist on these threads has not defended Regeneration preceding faith at the expense of clear scripture?
Yet, Calvinism expects to reconcile this real contradiction by just stating that it is only apparent, when in fact , it is very real.
If a man cannot repent when the offer is made, (and he can't since he is not elected) then the offer is a farce.
Prayers are with you. Lost my father-in-law a couple of years ago. Go, be with family.
We'll be good. ;-)
If a man repents and possesses the Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he is among the elect, as best as another human being can assess.
It's a matter of perspective. You say a man decides to repent, believes in Christ and thus possesses faith.
The Calvinist says God gives a man faith, man repents, and is thus saved.
We have differences, but it's important we describe those differences accurately. No one is "prevented" from repenting. All men are exhorted to repent. And if a man does repent, he is recognized as a recipient of God's grace and thus, is among the elect.
But it's God's call because it's God's gift of grace that causes us to believe. Nothing in man can save himself. All that is good is of God, especially salvation.
Sorry, obtuse doesn't work for me. I have to deal with too much of that at work. Besides, even though I'm a car buff, a Yugo is so far off my radar, that I don't really care to know what they look like, let alone be able to identify one on sight. The only things that looks uglier to me that that are those new Scion boxes, and the Honda Element. Soviet styling at it's finest.
***If a man cannot repent when the offer is made, (and he can't since he is not elected) then the offer is a farce.***
Additionally, my fine Calvinist sister, fortheDeclaration's statement here is more than a little reminiscent of the hissie fit that Pelagius threw at Augustine's prayer. It is pretty amusing that Arminians today resort to using those same kind of objections when dealing with Scripture. But, to unravel this statement a bit and reveal why it actually destroys the need for the Atonement, let's look at a few verses.
First off, repentence is not an offer in the gospel; it is expressly commanded:
1. In those days, John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" - Matthew 3:1
2. Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Notice, my sister, that this gospel is NOT presented as an offer of repentence, but people are "commanded everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). Well, beyond the fact that this means that the Arminians don't even have the right mindset when preaching the gospel, it really does invalidate the Atonement.
You see, if we take as the gospel truth that a man must be able to obey God's commands in order for God to not be playing a kind of sick joke on man (Pelagius' objection to Augustine's prayer & the Arminian's objection to Scripture revelation about man's natural Adamic state) then all men must be born fully able to be perfect on their own:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:48 JKV (fortheDeclaration's perfect translation)
So, we can clearly see that a command to be perfect just like God is also given. Therefore, according to Arminian's own reasoning, man must be born with the ability to already be perfect. God wouldn't establish a standard of perfection with man, no matter how young he is, through the Law which man cannot obey otherwise, using this Arminian & Pelagian premise, it would all be a farce.
Ergo, man just needs to get it together and we can forget about all of this sinners needing to be saved business. Just exactly like Pelagius taught and the Pelagians believe, Arminianism's inescapable conclusion is that man simply needs to follow Jesus' & the Father's perfect examples to be perfect. Man does not need to be saved from his nature because he has a perfectly capable nature to be perfect. Man does not need Jesus' sacrifice. And man does not need the regeneration of the Holy Spirit because man already naturally possesses a nature capable of perfection.
So, you see, Arminianism is a perfect trifecta.
1. The Father's election is void because God elects everyone while Satan votes against everyone and man gets to cast the deciding ballot. I've heard more than one Arminian exactly state this, BTW.
2. The Son's sacrifice is meaningless because man simply needs to follow Jesus' example to be perfect. Many Arminians today, in fact, preach and exclusively believe in Grotius' "governmental theory" of Atonement and entirely reject our Reformed Scriptural Penal Substitution.
3. The Holy Spirit need not regenerate anyone in new birth because man must already be able to follow the commands of the Law to be perfect.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
All over Hell hands are being raised saying "Excuse me! Excuse me!"
Dr. E., if man cannot repent unless he is regenerated. If the non-elect are not regenerated.
Then, the non-elect are prevented from repenting.
There is no other way to look at Calvinism.
Well, I'd prefer the term obscure. But I get your point.
Of course there is. The reason the Arminian won't, is because he would then see that his doctrinal system collapses. No one wants to be faced with the fact that he has believed the wrong thing. It's embarrassing, and humbling.
if man cannot repent unless he is regenerated. If the non-elect are not regenerated. Then, the non-elect are prevented from repenting.
Prevention of repentance implies an action on the part of God, such as " Look! There's a man about to repent! Oh no you don't! I won't LET you!" That's ludicrous!
God need do nothing to prevent or keep a man from repentance. Man is naturally capable of that little feat all on his own. In fact, because of that Fall, that is man's natural state, inclination, and desire. True repentance is sorrow for one's sins and a desire to turn from them because they offend a Holy God, NOT because one got caught sinning, and is trying to escape the consequences. The repentance a criminal shows is a false repentance. He's not sorry he did it, he's sorry he got caught. Fallen man is not worried that he has offended a Holy God, because he hates that Holy God.
God's requirement that men everywhere repent is not an implication that they are actually ABLE to do so, it is the basis and proof that God is JUST and RIGHT to condemn them for their sins, because as fallen men, they wouldn't repent EVEN IF THEY COULD. God, as the Sovereign Lord of Creation has every right to state what He requires, without consideration as to whether or not His fallen creatures can obey. He is not obligated to only command that which can be acheived or obeyed. That is the hubris of man, thinking that God must be "fair" on MAN'S terms, when those terms are skewed by the fallen nature and fallen mind of man. Man does not dictate the terms, God does. God doesn't ask for man's input, and will not receive it. Salvation of any individual is God's to choose, not man's to choose or demand.
Sorry, meant to ping you to this!
But of course it is and very obviously so. It is a supernatural, non-Divine/God 'salvation' that speaks alternate literal terms in mimicy of God's Word that creates what God Speaks. Free willism/arminainism is the speech which can't create anything building an emotional set/false religion out of speech, denying new birth in Jesus Christ as actual and real truth because arminian speech/non-creating speech/sin can't create anything and flees from being discovered as powerless. So it builds all 'logic' on lack of creation, not the certainty of it, to include the necessaity of why it is spoken--to deliver "information" that the supposed autonoumous soul can "use" and yet not be outright re-created as new creature in Jesus Christ/Word of God which they do not control at all, but uses the term 'new birth' as a mere metaphor for a new emotional rubric that masquerades to those deceived by it as a new emotional skill set delivered by God's 'language' that is supposedly not-God but mere 'holy information'.
Arminianism/free willism/speech of sin is out and out sedition and denial of God as Word. Period. All one can do who is an arminain is be used of Satan to supposedly exploit his or her own emotional skill set and get mad unless they are out and out non-metaphorically born again as real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ. But their mere anger means zilch to God though it impresses the heck out of them as each other.
Arminians must be genuinly born again. One who has already been born again knows the Word by which he or she was re-created and cannot deny God as Creating Word. Period. Yet the arminain denies God all day as Creating Word because he or she knows full and well that God as His Word "would" do away with all free will--and their whole lie is exposed because God IS His Word and Love (not human emotion). Not only are the free willers/arminains used by sin to lie as non-creating speech but they have no defense before God for lying as their only speech is non-creating and not-God.
Proverbs 8:8,9 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing tortuous or perverse in them. They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
***Prevention of repentance implies an action on the part of God, such as " Look! There's a man about to repent! Oh no you don't! I won't LET you!" That's ludicrous!
God need do nothing to prevent or keep a man from repentance.***
I think you've hit the nail on the head here with your overall post. Arminians, rather than face the Biblical implications of their theology would rather misrepresent the Biblical principals that man follows his nature.
Good men bring forth good fruit and bad men bring forth evil fruit.
Because, as you say it is embarrassing and humbling to know that you have wrong theology it is easier to alter the correct theology and point out the flaws in it. This is straw man argumentation.
Of course, we know that God doesn't "prevent" man from repenting. This reveals either a blatant misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches about man's natural state or it is simple ignorance. Man simply will speak out of the abundance of his heart. If his heart is naturally evil, then man will bring forth evil fruit. If man's heart has been changed, then that man will bring forth good fruit. In either case, man is not prevented from repenting. Man is simply acting how he naturally wants to act.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. - Luke 6:44-46
The Lord Jesus is perfectly clear. Man speaks and acts according to his nature. Arminians simply deny this. This is why they have invented this thing called "Libertarian free will." The only problem is that this so called "free will" actually destroys man's moral responsibility.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
God Speaking to Himself as Word through our new hearts as we are literal new creation in Him:Gal 4:6 But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Psalm 139:23,24 Search me, O *God, and know my heart; prove me, and know my thoughts; And see if there be any grievous way in me; and lead me in the way everlasting.
Psalm 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
Psalms 19:12-14 Who understandeth his errors? Purify me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be perfect, and I shall be innocent from great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Jehovah, my rock, and my redeemer.
Matthew 10:19,20 But when they deliver you up, be not careful how or what ye shall speak; for it shall be given to you in that hour what ye shall speak. For *ye* are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.
In the Name of Jesus Chrit, Amen
I believe any Arminian who repents and possesses the Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is among the elect because that is what Scripture tells us truly separates the sheep from the wolves.
However, I believe Arminianism is a large portal to all kinds of mischief and error. And that's not good.
It would help if all Christians had a better understanding of the early Gnostics who sought to subvert Christ's teachings and God's sovereignty by re-introducing the Platonic ideal that man already contains perfection within him, if only he can distill it from its earthly, temporal casement.
The idea that man's true "goodness" is confined by the flesh and bones of his humanity is actually a terrible lie that leads to all kinds of philosophical perversions and is at the heart of ALL beliefs other than the strict understanding that ALL men are fallen, but that the elect (all believing Christians) are sanctified by His grace, and thus, are beloved by Him and are blessedly fruitful according to His will.
The Gnostics saw the earth as a confining weight that obscured man's true "inner light."
But the Christian should realize that the earth is God's gift to man, and He has instructed us to use this gift wisely as a means of glorifying His name.
Yet at the same time, the Christian should realize that NOTHING within himself is capable of doing anything God-pleasing unless and until that Christian is first transformed from a fallen, dead sinner and son of Adam into a God-fearing, righteous child of Christ.
And this perfect gift of salvation is not within us fallen creatures to obtain. It is wholly and solely the providence of God's eternal decree.
And thus, unlike the Arminian, a Christian cannot go wrong and lead others into Gnostic error if that Christian attests to God's will alone as the means of all salvation.
Christians would do well to read the history of the early Gnostics. By the grace of God, they will recognize it within the pages of Finney and Arminius and Schuller...
Boettner's point is that the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church was the only model of a trans-colonial, All-American national organization over-arching all the individual Colonies as a distinctly-American National "Government" (in ecclesiastical matters, at least for Americans who were Presbyterian). I don't believe that a Massachusetts Presbyterian would have been governed in any significant respect by the Civil Laws of the Virginia House of Burgesses; but both a Massachusetts Presbyterian and a Virginia Presbyterian were equally governed by the Church Law of the General Assembly.
Under Calvinism...
~ Man cannot repent unless he is regenerated.
~ God does not regenerate everyone.
Therefore, the non-elect are prevented from repenting. If you must, they are prevented from wanting to repent.
But it is never their choice.
They are not allowed to choose otherwise.
It's that simple.
It's that horrifying.
And you say that makes God happy.
I see your point, but you have to understand the perspective of the Virginians. We pretty much think we made it all happen. ;-)
Welcome back.
Wow....this is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. Nice work.
I hated Calvinism for several years before finally accepting it....I DO NOT like being wrong. It is my sinful nature....I can be a stubborn cuss. But, I gave in because I was wrong. Arminianism is wrong, and I am glad I foud the truth.
Corin, if you choose to believe that your system, in which YOU are the author of your own salvation, in which you are "smarter" than the neighbor down the street who rejects Christ because you somehow "get it all figured out" that salvation is a nice thing and he doesn't, then fine.
But, I would not say that makes God happy.
It makes God a respecter of persons because mental capacities to understand the goodness of God will differ under your system.
Under Calvinism, God makes everyone equal at the bottom of the ocean due to their sin. He then chooses, of his grace alone and not based on anythig in the person, to save some for his glory. Everyone is equal and he chooses to save some out of pure grace. That is amazing.
You obviously think that is unfair, but I think it is not evil for God to show mercy to whom he pleases and keep in teh dark those whom he chooses not to save. You need to read Romans 9. It is abundant grace for Him to even save anyone.
And frankly, it is more unfair and frankly, evil and out of character of God to let people choose to come to faith (despite being dead in sin and unable to see any good in godly things). This creates two classes of people: the dumb and the smart. The smart come to faith and use their brains, while the dumb do not. They don't have the mental capacity to see goodness in God and come to faith. And why do they not come? God made them inferior in their head to the 'smart' ones who do see goodness in God.
Frankly, sir, that is what Arminianism ultimately believes in the end. And it is blasphemy.
I don't.
So there.
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