Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
Their prisoners died at a 12% rate, not much worse than in the army. Andersonville's rate was up to 39%.
They had the resources. They had room. They had enough of everything.
And I acknowledged there were murderers on both sides. Your side can't admit that the POWs were treated badly. I've said they were treated badly. But it was colder in the northern prisons so all things being equal that will cause a higher rate.
Oh you're the Judge?
Okay, the British "puttings down" among the Scots borderlands and among the Irish after the Boyne would be another couple of cases.
So you admit there was plenty of precedent? What the British did to the Highlanders was as close to outright murder as it gets, if it wasn't.
But aren't you guys claiming that Lincoln was pro-slavery? I wish you'd get your propaganda straight. lol
I can't believe you're trying to play dumb about this -- that is just disingenuous. Bad faith will get you nowhere
Play dumb about it? I'd like to see where the state of Illinois harassed the southern states about slavery before the war. That's news to me. Maybe they did, but I haven't seen it. It would be great if they did.
No, I believe the founding fathers said what they meant in the Constitution. Don't forget what Washington did in the Whiskey Rebellion.
...and then you complain everyone else does the stuff you do.
I've accused no one here of crimes.
The people you scorn and scoff at would make two of you, lightweight.
Those of the Union would of you.
I dunked you, and you wouldn't take your beating. You're just a punk from Chicago...
I was born closer to Arkansas, always lived closer to Arkansas, live now closer to Arkansas, and have never lived more than 20 miles farther north than I do right now, so I don't know what your hangup with Chicago is. Regardless, Chicago is a great city, one of my favorites, and it's people are great.
...with a big attitude and a flair for baiting people.
Translation: I don't believe the revisionism that slavery had nothing to do with secession. To you guys, that's "baiting".
It wasn't me that hit it the first time.
In the rest of your post you've falsely accused me of a crime again. In other posts, you've falsely accused me of interstate travel to commit this crime. This is slander. Some people in my area know my handle. You may have to make up any financial losses, if any, your false accusations may cause.
Then please inform #3fan to cease his constant personal abuse of fellow posters around here and accompanying verbal defecation on this and other threads like it. As you may ascertain by the testimony of any of the posters I have pinged in this message among dozens of others, his verbally abusive messages on this thread alone began the moment he arrived and presently number in the hundreds. If I am guilty of returning the favor with regards to him it is only out disgust for the hostile and intentionally inflamatory manner in which the said poster behaves on threads such as these towards all who encounter him and out of knowledge that he persists in behaving in this manner with seeming impunity. Thank you for your time.
Now I know why GOPcap refuses to even engage. Lesson learned (unfortunately, the hard way).
Guys - can you seriously believe this nut? The "interstate travel" reference was a taunting quip about a horrible bus trip to Baton Rouge - a literary mockery of his shared resemblence to Ignatius Reilly, the tragic protagonist of John Kennedy Toole's "A Confederacy of Dunces." He apparently took it literally and STILL hasn't figured out it was a taunt! Just the same, he apparently STILL hasn't figured out nolu chan's similar taunt about the suicide attempt out of his mother's basement window! Stupidity of this magnitude is simply beyond comprehension! (PSST: You also may not want to tell Forrest Gump over there that he resembles the Monty Python black knight sketch either - he may start accusing you of lying on the grounds that he has never donned a suit of armor for sword combat with you!)
The following site says something similar. Hood.
Nice music on the site.
1,824 posted on 03/28/2004 8:19:55 PM CST by #3Fan [ignored troll]
You are the wind.
I was not talking about everyone. I was talking about #3Fan.
In #3Fan #1740, -YOU- said to Gianni: "Nolu brought up the word "liar" first IIRC"
As I proved, and anyone can verify by reviewing the first 151 messages on this thread, the word "liar" was first brought up by none other than #3Fan.
#151 #3Fan to Gianni: "So deception by omission is your game when you don't outright lie. (By "you" I mean neoconfederates)"
As you feel that bringing up this word first deserves action and abuse, I recommend that you take action and go sit in a corner and commit self abuse.
Your point, clearly stated, was the racist remark that deporting Blacks, free or slave, was no different than deporting Mexicans.
[#3Fan #1788] I'm not for deporting anyone that works and has been established here.
Having arrived before the Mayflower, it would seem undeniable that Africans were established here by the time Lincoln spoke.
It appears you believe neither the slaves nor the free Blacks worked.
Perhaps you feel that Africans who arrived here in chains, without a Green Card, committed an offense which meant that their descendants, living here centuries later, could be subjected to deportation.
[#3Fan #1788] My point was that Illinois would've had a concern about excessive immigration of slaves....
I'm sure you meant to say free people with black skin.
Illinois did not want an excessive number of people with black skin in their neighborhood. #3Fan does not want an excessive number of people with brown skin in his neighborhood. No te preocupes. Ellos no vayan comer sus niños.
The words were published in "The Crisis," a publication of the NAACP, by one of the founding fathers of the NAACP, who had a Ph.D. from Harvard. The words were spoken by one of the most respected Black authors and thinkers.
#3Fan said those words prove the speaker to be a neoconfederate full of hate.
You may now mouth weasel words like Bill Clinton and the documentation will remain.
Yep, you are quite a mindreader.
Actually, I pictured you jumping out that basement window of your mother's apartment, and then falling and falling and falling and going splat on the concrete sidewalk and being so flat you looked like you were painted on the sidewalk. And then, like the cartoon character you are, you pick yourself up, blow up like a baloon back to regular size, put your coke-bottle glasses back on, and say, "I hate that pesky wabbit!"
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