Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
And likewise to you. God bless!
Tell me, EB, has anyone here suggested Luther is the Pope we follow? Has anyone encouraged he be prayed to for intercession? More than likely, Luther is in heaven already while, no doubt, some of the very Saints Catholics ARE encouraged to emulate and pray to are not.
Should you ever actually want to educate yourself about the man and what he REALLY said - in context - and how he led a very moral and honorable life, here's a good place to start:
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/12/martin-luther-topical-master-index-for.html
Of course, if the truth is really not your aim here, then I doubt you will avail yourself of this resource, preferring to falsely use the 500 years-dead man of God to condemn those who oppose you. Just don't imagine no one is wise to the tactic!
They were part of the Septuagint, which was a GREEK translation of the Old Testament books IN ADDITION TO fifteen other books that were not in the canon of the Old Testament. Just because the GREEK OT translation was quoted some of the time, neither Paul nor any other New Testament writer quotes directly from any of the Apocryphal books. Here's a better discussion of the topic: LINK
Of course, this thread is posted by someone who posts daily thread about the "evil catholics deliberately changed everything because...well, because they were evil and only those of us in our small tiny church know the TRUTH.
Except this thread says nothing of the kind! Cannot non-Catholics have RF threads that explain why we DON'T accept some of the Catholic doctrines?
So the one billion Catholics and the half a billion Orthodox Christians are all going to hell, but hey her tiny church will laugh at us from heaven for being evil.
Again, stop with the histrionics already! Do you not see how ridiculous that kind of talk is?
When I was in coma from Thanksgiving until nearly Christmas and most of the time expected to die, I was the beneficiary of the prayers of many here, Catholics as well as Reformed Christians, leading to the mercy of God that allows me to converse with others here and now. I think it would be an abuse of God's mercy to use the opportunity He has given me to insult my fellow Christians of other faiths.
I am a Roman Catholic and I shall die as a Roman Catholic. When I practiced law, I represented many wonderful pro-lifers arrested in Operation Rescue type incidents. No distinction was ever made between Catholics and Reformed Christians. Each was represented to the courts, according to his or her respective beliefs. There was a great opportunity for each to witness as to his or her faith.
I only wish that the Rescuers' spirit of Christian comeraderie could spread to Free Republic so that we might seek to emulate Jesus Christ in His love for all of us, Catholic and Reformed. If my chosen language to describe people is different from what anyone might prefer, I would plead that my errors are innocent and a reflection of my life experience.
May God bless you and yours!
To where do you pray they revert? To your version of Catholicism or the one you call the "rogue curia in Rome" or is it to the Catholic SSPX, the Sedavacanists, the Traditionalists, the Liberals, the Modernists, etc., etc.???
Here's a thought...start praying for the LOST, who don't know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, that they may come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. That's sure what I pray for.
No they weren't...The Jewish Orthodox would never have allowed to have books added to their bible...Jesus confirms what the O.T. was...The Psalms, the Law and the Prophets...Your extra Catholic books were not included by Jesus...
HaHaHa...If you only knew what they know...
Thanks for your concern, but I am already saved. If you want to pray for me, just pray that my daily walk with Jesus would grow deeper. It is a daily struggle. I just want more victory over sin. I do not want sin to reign in my mortal body. Other than that, as BB says, pray for the lost. Bare witness to the lost. They are the ones who really need prayer the most. 🇵🇭
Read the article I linked to. There was no monolithic Jewish bible until 90 AD and Paul quoted from the Greek book because that is the bible used by the early church.
I think the difference for Catholics and why they perceive the Protestants to be so different from each other is that they tie all those things to salvation. Once they left salvation by faith alone in Christ alone and added other requirements each difference became monumental.
From what I can tell most Catholics simply accept the re-written history the Catholic Church puts out. We see that true documented history is posted here and it’s simply ignored by Catholics.
Is there any wonder that they can't be assured of salvation? It's all dependent on what man does.
The article at your link was woefully inept. The quote "Paul used to cite from the Septuigent( that's what it was called) copiously in his talks and letters to his communities." is incredibly deceptive. Paul never quoted from any of that apocryphal books. If I quote from the gospel of Matthew in the Catholic bible it doesn't mean I accept the apocryphal books included in the same Catholic bible.
If you only knew what Satan knows...
As usual, you are confused.
And then we can celebrate with some bubble up and rainbow stew.
Only the saved have the indwelling Holy Spirit ....and that my friend is indeed a very small number of the people that have or will live in this earth
So not a single Catholic in the world has been anointed with the Holy Spirit?
Many Catholics, some right here on this forum,have been given the indwelling Holy Spirit... Once they begin to be taught by God ..they leave
So, are all Protestants so anointed and therefore know the true meaning of Scripture, or only the Episcopalians?
Catholics just do not get "it". ..There are saved and unsaved in Protestant churches ...This is not about being protestant.. it is about being born again
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