Posted on 02/28/2015 2:38:16 PM PST by SkyPilot
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>> “I would rather have the broad perspective from many different Christian pastors” <<
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I would rather forego the corruptions of those men and rely on the plain word of God, regardless of how much violence it does to the words of those men.
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True. God will not ask my opinion. My hope has nothing to do with this world at all.
“I would rather have the broad perspective from many different Christian pastors”
“broad perspective”? It’s a PRETRIB center.
“Before God’s Wrath” is a study of the Bible and a comparison of the Bible’s Word with MAN’S (as in Christian pastors’) interpretation, except it compares BOTH pretrib and prewrath.
I really have to leave now. Can’t respond anymore at this time.
It’s broader than what you’re suggesting ... ;-) ...
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Everything “pre-trib” is narrow, man made, and contrary to the plain words of Yeshua and his apostles.
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What “Biblical hermeneutics?”
That is pure nonsense!
God’s word has no contradictions, and a pre-trib rapture would turn the entire Bible on its head.
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Here is an example of the thoroughly dishonest intent of the article:
>> “Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?” <<
Really?
Paul plainly stated that all was revealed to him by Yeshua, on the Damascus road (long before it was revealed to John).
Do they think that the apostles had different revelations?
Paul and John were both speaking of the same events, so how would the trumps be different? This is convoluted, contrived deception to sooth their own fears, and lack of spiritual guidance.
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Yeshua took no one to heaven!
John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Yeshua is the First Fruits.
There is but one resurrection unto life, at the last trump, at the end of the trib, just before the bowls of wrath are poured out on the Earth.
Rev 20:6 “ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
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No,the falling away is not a departure. it is a moral, spiritual corruption of the entire
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The man of sin must be revealed before our redemption.
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“We will never be sure until the events occur which is correct, but I am excitedly awaiting the return of my Savior.”
That’s the bottom line, to “long for His appearing”.
Your right no one could ascend into Heaven until Jesus did making him the first fruits, but as Scripture states he did indeed take captives home.
Ephesians 4:7-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
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Your version makes the Bible a book of contradictions.
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"2 Thessalonians 2.7: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
It is the true Church that must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed.
The Holy Spirit indwells with believers. This is absolutely Biblical. When the restrainer (Holy Spirit in believers) is removed, then the Antichrist (indwelled by Satan) will start his plan, including the peace false treaty with Israel.
Paul plainly stated that all was revealed to him by Yeshua, on the Damascus road (long before it was revealed to John).
I am sorry, but that is pure sophistry.
By that argument, I could say that two disciples who walked with Jesus (even through they didn't recognize Him at the time) on the Road to Emmaus, and stated Luke 24:32 that the Scriptures were opened to them, were given every revelation and every secret of the mind of God. But that would be a false argument, and it isn't what the passage says. God chose to reveal Revelation and its secrets to one disciple, John, and He did it many years later.
Paul never claimed that he was given the entire mind of God (which would be impossible anyway) and every revelation. But Paul preached time and time again that the the Gospel of Jesus Christ was opened to him. And that is what he preached - Christ crucified. Paul was given insight to the Rapture and the Antichrist, and yet even what he says you have discounted.
We have already gone over the trumpets as well, and the Bible mentions trumpets over 60 times. You wish to hang your hat on one trumpet being the same trumpet. You believe what you want to believe.
Those who are persecuted during the Tribulation become believers after the Rapture. These are the saints. Revelation even tells us that many were beheaded, and are given white robes and told to wait a little longer until their brethren are also killed in a like fashion, so that their martyrdom is complete before God enacts his vengeance. (Revelation 6)
Finally, I will restate what I have already said here. If the Rapture is mid or end Tribulation, then a believer would know the exact timing of Christ's Rapture of His own based on the days revealed by Daniel after the signing of the false 7 year peace treaty. That flies in the face of everything Christ said about us not knowing the day nor the hour, and the Doctrine of Imminency.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46).
The pre-tribulation Rapture is the only view that allows for the Rapture to be imminent in its timing. If Christ were prevented from coming until after the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
I don't read minds, so I don't know why you choose to believe falsely as you do. Perhaps you think that once the Anti-Christ is revealed, you can suddenly turn more devout or in the way you are living, because you will know the End is nigh? Perhaps you think it will be grand to know the time line of Revelation as it occurs on earth while it is unfolding? Perhaps you welcome persecution during the Tribulation, because you think you would have the opportunity to earn for yourself a crown on the Bema Seat? I don't know. But the Blessed Hope of believers is our return of Jesus Christ - and that is Biblical. Your attacks (calling people liars, etc) on those who are hoping for what Christ Himself told us to watch for are reminds me of the rebuke Nathan gave to David in 2 Samuel 12.
7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. 8 And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight?"
It is a very good website - thanks for posting it.
"Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Titus 2:13
And there it is. We are all sinful, and decrepit, but the blood of Jesus saved us. We as we are, in our weakness He is made strong. We limp on, with our "crutch" of faith and hope. The are many who attempt to kick out that hope from beneath us, but our blessed hope is the imminent return of Jesus.
I don’t think the rapture is post-trib. Christ said he would cut short (amputate) that time of suffering for the sake of the elect. That doesn’t mean the 7 yr. period is cut short - just the persecution of the elect by antichrist. My point was that Wallvoord and Mayhue both stated that the pre-trib was not specifically taught by scripture. My other point is that those closest to the Apostles most likely had it correct - the church would be tested at the end by the persecution of antichrist. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, what of the Ante Nicene fathers views? There is a rapture. I believe it is between the 6 and 7 seals. Just before God’s Day of the Lord wrath. The first 5 ch. of Rev. are a warning to the churches of what is to come and to get ready for it - as is the Olivet Discourse. Why would Christ warn about it to the church if they would not experience it? I don’t think Christ was warning the nation of Israel as they will enter the 70th week in unbelief and not believe until (like Joseph’s brothers on their 2nd visit) Christ reveals Himself to them. Then they get it and then they mourn. Personally, I don’t think there will be many American Christians left as I believe America is coming under God’s judgement and I don’t think there will be many of us left to know which view - pre-trib or pre-wrath is correct. We’ll be trying to escape with our lives from the American jihad and Obama’s reeducation camps ;- ) The really important thing in all of this discussion is to stay on the cross and let Christ rule in our hearts and lives. I don’t like it much but the word witness is very closely associated with the word martyr. Anyway, God bless as you work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
A friendly discussion is profitable, but that’s not what we’re going to have if you are going to toss around words like “liar”.
Please provide me - politely - with the specific verse reference you would like me to respond to, if indeed you are interested in a response.
Thank you.
It's the time of Jacob's trouble ie Israel, not the time of trouble for the ekklesia.
Those who are protected are the 144,000 selected from the 12 tribes of Israel. The ekklesia has been off this earth for 3 1/2 years by then.
Claiming we are already in the time of the events of Revelation turns the Bible on it's head.
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