Posted on 02/28/2015 2:38:16 PM PST by SkyPilot
My Savior will return and I will meet Him in the air when He calls. Actually My Savior will return twice. Once FOR the Church when we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever more, and once WITH the Church to set up His millenial reign on earth.
I don’t care what my LCMS pastor thinks of this belief, although I know many LCMS clergy that are pre trib. This is the one major area Luther did not get right, but as it is not a salvation issue and I agree with the core doctrine of the LCMS, it is not a deal breaker for me. You would be surprised how many pre tribbers are within the walls of the confessional Lutheran church
The key to understanding Revelation is at the end of Chapter 1 (1:19). John is told to write down
1. The things he has seen (what has preceded in chapter 1);
2. The things that are (the present church age, chapters 2 & 3); and
3. That which will follow (chapter 4 to the end).
Then compare 1:19 to 4:1 -
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
That is the rapture. The Church is never seen on earth after that.
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You’re blowing smoke!
Paul plainly says to the Thessalonians that the “man of sin must be revealed before they can be resurrected.
The ‘he’ that is taken out of the way is Satan that is removed from the throne room of God, where he presently accuses the bretheren, and cast down to Earth where he quickly indwells the man of sin.
The man of sin MUST be revealed before anyone is resurrected!
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>> “That is the rapture.” <<
Balderdash!
That is John, not the never to be ‘rapture.’
John is being called to see the things that he is to write in the Revelation.
You make Paul a liar with your fantasy. The man of sin must first come!
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Or, even better served, one could go to Amazon and read the background of H. L. Nigro and buy “Before God's Wrath”, that notes the writings of the best known published Bible scholars in pretrib (which likely includes the most prominent writers in your pretrib..center - if, indeed, some are writers), plus prewrath and postwrath postulations from different writers and compares all three positions against Bible scripture from the old and new testament.
“Before God's Wrath” is a scholarly undertaking complete with footnotes giving credit and source to those whose quotations she used.
There you have it in one book - 347 pages.
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>> “My Savior will return and I will meet Him in the air when He calls. Actually My Savior will return twice. Once FOR the Church when we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever more, and once WITH the Church to set up His millenial reign on earth.” <<
This is schematically true, but it isn’t any “church,” its his assembly (or congregation if you prefer) who are all the true believers from Adam to the last trump. “Church” is an incorrect translation that causes much confusion.
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>> “I don’t believe any Christians will go into the tribulation...” <<
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Then how will satan tribulate the saints?
How will the Man of Sin come first?
How will 1Corinthians 15 be fulfilled?
How will Matthew 24 be fulfilled? This chapter is specifically addressed to the only true believers alive on Earth, his disciples.
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It would definitely be better for one to go to the Pre-Trib Research Center, as they have analyzed it from the Bible from many different perspectives ... and it represents many different pastors/researchers submitting their work for almost twenty-five years of work.
I would say this represents a broader cross-section and over a longer period of time ... in addition to these pastors giving away their work to the Christian public for FREE ... :-) ...
Pre-Trib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org
I will wast little time on your deception.
The day Paul spoke of was the day of their redemption. That was the specific concern of the Thessalonians.
That is what CONTEXT is all about. It prevents the kind of confusion as is exhibited in post 58!
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I explained to you, and CynicalBear told you post#58, the answer to that.
I have also read your other posts, and the tone with which you posted them. May you get your wish then, and remain here for the Tribulation.
If the Rapture were to happen, I imagine there will be posters all over the internet who will say things like this:
"The Rapture could NOT have happened for Christians! I am still here!!"
So is the Rapture Question Answered - Plain & Simple by Robert VanKampen. He was the one who convinced Marvin Rosenthal.
That is childish!
And relying on Cynicalbear’s obvious error won’t help one bit.
All will be here for the trib, but those of us that watch as he demanded in Revelation 3:3 will be taken to a place on Earth prepared for his elect. That is what the word says.
Again, Paul said that the Man of Sin must berevealed before the day of our redemption.
Then you accuse others of this:
"You make Paul a liar with your fantasy."
Again, may you get your wish and be here during the Tribulation. It's obviously what you want.
Agreed.
The last of the Apostles (the men who saw and were taught by Christ) died off about 100 AD. There was a period of about 200 years before the Nicene Council met in 325 AD. So there was a period of time where the men who were taught by the first Apostles (about 200 yrs.) continued on in the Church. These early Church fathers that lived after the Apostles, wrote down what they believed. The thinking is that if anyone understood what the early Apostles believed it would be these men. “The Writings of the Ante Nicene Fathers”, of which there were about 20 father’s quoted, shows that not one of them believed that the Church was going to be taken before the 70th Week of Daniel. Of those 20, all but two writers, Origen and Clement of Alexandria - men who’s names have become trademarks of allegorical and mystical interpretation - believed that the Church would go through the persecution of antichrist to refine the Church before the Rapture.
Two quotes from past Deans of conservative seminaries that hold to the Pre-Trib view:
Dr. John Wallvoord, past president/dean (50 yrs.) of Dallas Theological Seminary in his original book, The Rapture Question (first addition [removed after 1st printing],1954), states, “…the fact is neither post tribulationalism or pre-tribulationalism is an explicit teaching of scripture. The Bible does not, in so many words state either.” “…the rapture question is determined more by your ecclesiology (your understanding of Israel and the Church) more than it is by your eschatology (your view of prophetic things).” - that last part is a very fair statement.
Dr. Richard Mayhue, who was dean of Masters Seminary in California, has written in The Prophet’s Watchword - The Day of the Lord (p. 181), “Neither a pre-tribulation rapture or a post tribulation rapture is taught explicitly in the scriptures. Problems remain to be solved by the pre-tribulationalist. But perhaps the position of the pre-tribulationalist is correct, although it’s proof at times has be logically invalid or at least unconvincing.”
Does God want us to believe something that is “logically invalid or unconvincing”?
If the Bible doesn’t explicitly teach something then that teaching is most likely “man’s teaching” not God’s. Scripture should be clear on whatever it is teaching - especially on what it calls the “blessed hope and glorious appearing of Jesus Christ.” Every doctrine of the Church is clearly taught in the N.T. Why not this one? These two men admit, and they were no dummies, that pre-trib and post-trib are not explicit teachings of scripture. Given those early church fathers believed the church would go through that time period is an important consideration regardless of the position you take.
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It doesn’t matter what anyone wants; its the word of God that says that no one that is alive and remains will be resurrected before the man of sin is revealed.
Those words will not go away no matter how you squirm or wish them to do so.
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Biblical hermeneutics clearly point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But you do want that to hear that. May you get what you want.
It definitely would not. It's a PRETRIB center, for goodness sake. “Before God's Wrath” compares pretrib and prewrath and what is to come after that. All sides are given, not just one. This is a search for truth, not a one sided pretrib monolith.
You say 25 yrs. of work by those pretrib men, well, “Before God's Wrath” is a study of over 2000 yrs. of inspired writing, plus comparing modern study truths and errors of interpreting those inspired writings.
“Before God's Wrath” is a published book, therefore one must pay for the printing. The cost of four large size Starbucks cappuccino will pay for it and you have it forever right at your fingertips.
Some people will study and gain insight of the truth:
“2 Timothy:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
That is a good one to repeat - “...shun profane and vain babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
I must go to other activities so I'm done here.
I would rather have the broad perspective from many different Christian pastors ... :-) ...
Pre-Trib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org
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John Wallvoord, and Richard Mayhue may wish that the post trib resurrection were not specifically taught in scripture; they dedicated their lives to rejecting the scriptures that so teach, but there is no other possibility satisfying Matthew 24, 1Corinthians 15, 2Thessalonians 2, and the entire book of Revelation, but a resurrection at the 7th trump, before the bowl judgements.
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You mention the removal of the Holy Spirit.
There is a plan that He placed in His sky that has followed the scriptures as only He could ordain.,
And they center on His Feasts in the 1st and 7th months and what His sky is doing at those times..
In times past, Israel observed Passover when the sun was located in the Ram/Lamb sign in His sky.
It made the 7th sign for His Fall Feasts the scales/balance
That certainly is prophectic given the Passover Lamb and the atonement and leveling the scales
Today, Israel observes Passover when the sun is located in the Two Fish. (Because of the earth’s wobble and procession of the equinox)
It makes the 7th month Feasts observed when the sun is located in the woman in the sky (revelation 12 sign)
That certainly is also prophetic given the Fishers of Men and the bride/church ‘age’.
The next wobble, big or small, will move the signs some more..
And the 1st month Passover will be when the sun is located in the ‘Water Bearer’ sign in His sky.
It makes His 7th month Feasts have the sun located in the Lion.
So, prophetically, are we looking for an outpouring of His Spirit and arrival of the Lion of Judah?
Now maybe some could see that as the church leaving and His Wrath poured out before the establishment of the Lion’s Kingdom..
Some may not see any of it..nor really care... but those signs up there and how they relate to Israel and His Feasts are fascinating..
We haven’t hit that point of the ‘water bearer’ and the ‘Lion’ but we are one big wobble or shake away.. so says His signs in His heavens..
Will the church be around for that wobble?
If it is, I pray they are preparing.. and watching,,
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