Posted on 06/13/2012 6:05:21 PM PDT by Grig
This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.
All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.
That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.
I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.
And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.
While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE
I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:
- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him
- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,
- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security
- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life
- He will be a better president than either Bush was
- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines
- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory
- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term
- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)
And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism
- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.
- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.
- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.
I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.
I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.
I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.
I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.
Do you guys have a link to the conversation?
Every time I try and look around, I get a message saying I have to join to see the conversation.
I did notice that they only have about 425 “members”.
Double the pleasure. :)
I never knew anything about Mormonism until the LIAR POS LIBERAL baby killing and same sex marriage, socialistic healthcare candidate, Romney, forced himself/bought himself onto our ticket. So get your story STRAIGHT!
Don't dare use his cult as a cover for what he did as governor - w/his evil 'accomplishments' with your 'you hate mormonism - so you hate Romney' You expose your liberalism mindset with that empty barrel statement, just like ' you hate obama because he' black'.
Liberals, pretending to be something what they are not, always end up exposing themselves, ROMNEY INCLUDED!
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of HIM to whom we must give account." Heb 4:13
Or double the embarrassment, depending on how brazen one can pretend to be about it, LOL!
I'm not sure of the point of what I think is supposed to be some snarky response to my posts on this thread. FWIW, I'm Roman Catholic, not LDS, so any anti-mormon snark on FR is wasted on me theologically.
On a personal level, vapid and insipid are two words that came to mind when I saw the picture, and the caption...then there was flavorless, unimaginative, uncharitable, unkind, wasted bandwidth.
And I like Dog, LOL.
Hey, if some FReepers didn’t argue religion or politics, they’d be lurkers. ;’)
Grig responded to me privately, but he digresses away from the core issue when he responds.
He holds dearly to “interpretation” instead of revelation.
It is expected when the Holy Spirit is not involved.
Ergo, Mormonism's paganism.
and hung by their long hair from the eves of buildings at Fort Utah,
has long been ignored, “You didn’t see the Indians beheading the Mormons.”
Mormons have a right to their beliefs in this nation, as long as they are not a physical threat to others. They currently are not. 300 years ago, Christians were burning women at the stake in the name of God, should current Christians be held responsible for that?
The debate on your beliefs vs. Mormon beliefs is fine if it was confined to the Religion Forum where it belongs. Its not. Your hatred of Mormons bleeds over into every discussion you are involved in here...
It reflects badly on FR and conservatives in general.
Intolerance and bigotry (Bigot ) are not conservative or Christian values in my book. Our nation was settled by refugees from just that, and our Constitution reflects it. Early Christians didn't spread their beliefs by confrontation, they spread it by living their lives as Christ would, converting others by example and sacrifice.
Just because you wrap yourself in the Bible, doesn't mean you are right. Cotton Mathers was considered a great man of God in his day....
Good! We can be FRiends. :-)
Indeed, he was.
Let us count the ways:
First of all, Grig's vanity rant was a FR "death wish" in and of itself...I mean he even started off the vanity with: "This may be the post that gets me zotted...I won't lose sleep either way though."
#2 Note what Jim said in post #231 -- the zot post: Go back to your antifreeper cave..."
This was a response to Grig's last post -- #218 -- where he had become an open critic of his hosts in (falsely) claiming that FR had "devolved." And post #218 was simply an extension of his vanity rant -- where he also openly critiqued FR:
"Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way."
Obviously, Jim is entirely correct here: Grig had converted from a 'FREEPER' to an "anti-FREEPER."
And then, on top of all, that, Greyfoxx and I both saw the handwriting on the wall -- with the handwriting clearly in Grig's own "penmanship":
Here was my post #156 excerpt: (Actual Grig quote: "If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical")
...If the reverse was done -- if a present or future MORMON had been pegged as a presidential assassin on a thread, the hue and cry would have been great from the Mormons, the Romney supporters, and even others...and a zot probably would have been prompt.
And Greyfoxx noted: Well, Canadian-meddling-in-US-politics Grig, several mormons have ridden the zot train for making accusations/insinuations against other FReepers like the ones you have made. (Post # 201)
This post was needed to summarize this whole thing -- lest Mormons (on or off FR) get their undergarments all in a twist & misinterpret/mislead others re: this fair-minded zot.
Why then are you intolerant of Elsie's religious beliefs -- including beliefs pertaining to Mormonism?
Is that not also bigotry vs. those who object to Mormonism on multiple grounds (beyond your carefully hermetically sealed compartmentalized "religion")?
So do you have some "license" that allows you to object to other posters religious objections to Mormonism -- but then they can't object to Mormonism on multiple grounds?
Are we to go by what you preach ("Thou shalt be tolerant and thou shalt not be bigoted") ... or by what you practice -- your own stubborn bigotedness & intolerance of what Elsie has said about Mormonism as applied to multiple arenas (political/religious/socio-political/religio-political, etc.)???
#1 Hatred is an internal motivation. Where do you get off internally judging others? (Only God sees the heart -- per the Old Testament...see 1 Samuel 16:7...which also says man looks only @ the outward appearance...) Where did you get your "degree" in judging strangers' inward motivations?
#2 Sometimes, I get the feeling that some posters were brought up in hostile homes in which perhaps hatred was an ingredient. They then wind up projecting in their adulthood "disagreements" and "arguing" and "objections raised" as hostile hatred.
Now you're a stranger. I don't pretend to know your history. So I'll just ask you point blank vs. presuming that I know something about your family history: Tell us: What was your family background in terms of "harmony" and any possible in-fighting that may have occurred?
#3 I noticed that instead of saying "hatred of MormonISM" -- you were guilty of a bad overreach by claiming some "hatred of Mormons" themselves.
Well, here's a "parallel" application here: By extension, you have thereby bought into the homosexual agenda & liberal MSM agenda & liberal campus multi-cultural agenda by assuming that opposing the homosexual agenda somehow = opposing the homosexual person.
There's really no way to escape this parallel application/conclusion.
People who claim it's "anti-Mormons" (the people) ... and not "anti-MormonISM" (the ISM or "systematic beliefs, worldviews, theology and doctrine") that is being opposed...
...wind up -- by extension -- joining the homosexual activists, the MSM, and the campus multi-culturalists in claiming ANY and ALL opposition to homosexuality is some slam/diss/bigotry vs. the homosexual himself.
Since this is a conservative site, after all, may I politely suggest that you consider repenting of whatever MSM and multi-cultural worldviews subtly or not-so-subtly taught to you by your campus mentors and/or MSM communicators?
May I suggest you then apply all this in a consistent way?
Did Obama legalize crack today? Later. I can’t wait.
Great visual there ;0)
See my tagline.
“I guess I can go make up a religion”
Just like L. Ron Hubbard.....Scientology.
Mormonism and tin hats......perfect fit everytime.
Perhaps Mormons want to control the language, like calling themselves “Christian” when they most certainly are not.
Are Mormons trying to co-opt Christianity? “Hey, we're the real Christians! We're the ones you've been waiting for!”
People who employ disingenuous, leftist tactics on FR deserve to be banned. That's why so many Mormons have ridden the lightning.
Things might be different here if a true conservative was the Mormon man up for the job.
I smell a retread.. the style looks kinda of familiar :p
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