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Ancient European Remains Discovered In Qinghai (China)
Xinhuanet/China View ^ | 7-6-2004

Posted on 07/06/2004 11:02:03 AM PDT by blam

Ancient European remains discovered in Qinghai

www.chinaview.cn 2004-07-06 15:32:53

XINING, July 6 (Xinhuanet) -- Archeologists confirmed that the human skeletons discovered this May in northwest China's Qinghai Province belonged to three Europeans who lived in China over 1,900 years ago.

"The physical characteristics of the bones showed it is a typical European race," said Wang Minghui, an expert with the archeological institute under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

The skeletons were spotted at Zhongchuan Town of the province's eastern most Minhe Hui and Tu Autonomous County.

Since 2002, archeologists have unearthed nine tombs of Han Dynasty (206 BC-220 AD) at a construction site of a brickfield in the town, but it was not until this May that they felt the skeletons in two tombs "very special", said Ren Xiaoyan, deputy director if the provincial archeological institute, who added they invited Wang, who specializes in human bone identification, to take part in the study on the findings.

Qinghai is on the southern section of the world-known land trade corridor -- the Silk Road, linking China with Central and Western Asia and to the eastern shores of the Mediterranean begins in the country's northwest and runs 7,000 kilometers.

Serving as an important bridge for the economic and cultural exchanges between the East and the West, the area, which the Silk Road covered in China, used to see throngs of Indian, Persian, Arabic, Greek and Roman people.

Ren said the tomb shape, the burial articles and the way they were put in the tomb are all typical in Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220), which proved the three westerners had lived here for a long time and were accustomed to local traditions and customs.

"Although so far, we have been not sure of the country the three Europeans came from and there might be a large number of such 'westerners' living here at the ancient time," said Ren.

Such European skeletons have only been revealed in northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, a neighboring region which is to the northwest of Qinghai, so the discovery this time is of great importance for the study of the ancient society in Qinghai, said Wang. Enditem


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancient; archaeology; discovered; economic; european; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; homerhdubs; liquan; qinghai; remains; romanempire; romansinchina; turass; uzbekistan
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To: RightWhale; madison10
A form of Christianity did reach China after sweeping through Syria, Iraq, Iran, India, and Afghanistan. It was popular until Islam.

Nestorian/Syrian. The Syrian-Chaldean church was very very big in what is now Iraq and Iran and Syria until the advent of the moon cult
51 posted on 07/06/2004 11:11:29 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: blam; Docbarleypop
Wasn't it contained in a report of the Lewis & Clark expedition that some members of the expedition communicated with the Mandans in Welsh? Also, I've read much speculation that the Mandans may be the remnants of the Prince Madoc (Welsh) group that came to the US in 1170AD...Lately I've read 540AD.

Well, those Welsh stories have been discounted -- they were made up by the British to try and claim that they had a legal claim over the Americas
52 posted on 07/06/2004 11:12:43 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: All
"That whole Xinjiang Uygur Autonomus Region is covered with Caucasian skeletons and mummies that date to 2,000BC. The Chinese skeletons and mummies do not start to show up in that region until about 100BC."

To put it bluntly, Xinjiang is not really part of China and neither is Tibet -- China ends at the Gobi desert -- the natural range that kept the Mongoloid race separate from the Caucasian race -- just as the Sahara separated the Caucasians from the Afroids.

Xinjiang belongs to Central Asia, a place where Iranic and Indic tribes were known to have roamed for millennia. Then, around the time of Christ, these were pushed westwards by the Turkic-Mongoloid peoples, as best demonstrated in Afghanistan-Iran:

In Afghanistan, the Turkic peoples moved quickly westwards and separated the Irani speaking Tajiks from Iran. Then, the Mongols came and moved directly south and became the Hazara tribes now found in central Afghanistan, some of which moved further south and formed the Moghul (Mongol) dynasty in India. The Turkic peoples meanwhile moved west to Anatolia.
53 posted on 07/06/2004 11:16:56 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: maui_hawaii
In Africa.

Are you sure? I've not heard of any Chinese presence in Afrika prior to the Ming (?) dynasty which sent a fleet around the 1400s to the Indian Ocean. that was the peak of Chinese civilisation and naval power
54 posted on 07/06/2004 11:18:26 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; Marie
For those who came late (gotta love Phantom!), here's a list of the Aryan family of languages:

Subfamily Group Subgroup Languages and Principal Dialects
Anatolian     Hieroglypic Hittite*, Hittite (Kanesian)*, Luwian*, Lycian*, Lydian*, Palaic*
Baltic     Latvian (Lettish), Lithuanian, Old Prussian*
Celtic Brythonic   Breton, Cornish*, Welsh
Celtic Continental   Gaulish*
Celtic Goidelic or Gaelic   Irish (Irish Gaelic), Manx*, Scottish Gaelic
Germanic East Germanic   Burgundian*, Gothic*, Vandalic*
Germanic North Germanic   Old Norse* (see Norse): Danish, Faeroese, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish
Germanic West Germanic (see Grimm's law) High German German, Yiddish
Germanic West Germanic (see Grimm's law) Low German Afrikaans, Dutch, English, Flemish, Frisian, Plattdeutsch (see German language)
Greek     Aeolic*, Arcadian*, Attic*, Byzantine Greek*, Cyprian*, Doric*, Ionic*, KoinE*, Modern Greek
Indo-Iranian Dardic or Pisacha   Kafiri, Kashmiri, Khowar, Kohistani, Romany (Gypsy), Shina
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan   Pali*, Prakrit*, Sanskrit*, Vedic*
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan Central Indic Hindi, Hindustani, Urdu
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan East Indic Assamese, Bengali, Bihari, Oriya
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan Northwest Indic Punjabi, Sindhi
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan Pahari Central Pahari, Eastern Pahari (Nepali), Western Pahari
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan South Indic Marathi (including major dialect Konkani), Singhalese (Sinhalese)
Indo-Iranian Indic or Indo-Aryan West Indic Bhili, Gujarati, Rajasthani (many dialects)
Indo-Iranian Iranian   Avestan*, Old Persian*
Indo-Iranian Iranian East Iranian Baluchi, Khwarazmian*, Ossetic, Pamir dialects, Pushtu (Afghan), Saka (Khotanese)*, Sogdian*, Yaghnobi
Indo-Iranian Iranian West Iranian Kurdish, Pahlavi (Middle Persian)*, Parthian*, Persian (Farsi), Tajiki
Italic (Non-Romance)   Faliscan*, Latin, Oscan*, Umbrian*
Italic Romance or Romanic Eastern Romance Italian, Rhaeto-Romanic, Romanian, Sardinian
Italic Romance or Romanic Western Romance Catalan, French, Ladino, Portuguese, Provençal, Spanish
Slavic or Slavonic East Slavic   Belorussian (White Russian), Russian, Ukrainian
Slavic or Slavonic South Slavic   Bulgarian, Church Slavonic*, Macedonian, Serbo-Croatian, Slovenian
Slavic or Slavonic West Slavic   Czech, Kashubian, Lusatian (Sorbian or Wendish), Polabian*, Polish, Slovak
Thraco-Illyrian     Albanian, Illyrian*, Thracian*
Thraco-Phrygian     Armenian, Grabar (Classical Armenian)*, Phrygian*
Tokharian (W China)     Tokharian A (Agnean)*, Tokharian B (Kuchean)*

55 posted on 07/06/2004 11:21:55 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: blam

i knew it was you when i saw the header.


56 posted on 07/06/2004 11:23:15 PM PDT by wardaddy (Bill Cosby for Black Culture Czar!)
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To: Cronos

The ones marked with an (*) are extinct languages


57 posted on 07/06/2004 11:23:42 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: AppyPappy

and worse yet, they have the audacity to use the term "race"....oh the horror!


58 posted on 07/06/2004 11:24:29 PM PDT by wardaddy (Bill Cosby for Black Culture Czar!)
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To: wardaddy

The term "race" is perfectly acceptable in a scientific discussion to distinguish between large groups of people -- it may blur at the edges but is a pretty good identifier


59 posted on 07/06/2004 11:26:20 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Cronos

i agree (with both parts) but i'll bet you that even a sizable number of freepers bristle at the word.

I saw you mentioned Indians earlier. Like you I generally lumped them into the Caucazoid group but I was corrected the other day here by someone who informed me (with links) that most Indians (particularly lower caste) were indeed Australiod/Negroid unlike Pakistanis who were more Caucazoid.

interesting


60 posted on 07/06/2004 11:33:23 PM PDT by wardaddy (Bill Cosby for Black Culture Czar!)
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To: RightWhale; madison10; blam

Jews have a long history in China. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/chinesejews1.html

But you gotta wonder how they kept kosher. :)


61 posted on 07/06/2004 11:56:59 PM PDT by pragmatic_asian
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To: pragmatic_asian

Lots & lots of scaled fish?


62 posted on 07/07/2004 6:16:19 AM PDT by madison10
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To: Cronos
there's no need to distort history

(/sarcasm)...feel better now?

63 posted on 07/07/2004 6:27:56 AM PDT by catpuppy (John Kerry! When hair is all that matters. John Edwards! See? I Told You So!)
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To: Cronos
"Are you sure? I've not heard of any Chinese presence in Afrika prior to the Ming (?) dynasty which sent a fleet around the 1400s to the Indian Ocean. that was the peak of Chinese civilisation and naval power"

He may be referring to the Bushmen (Khoisan), the speakers of a 'click' language. They have some Oriental features and their children have 'mongoloid spots.' They also have some physical features that are unique from all other humans.

64 posted on 07/07/2004 7:33:39 AM PDT by blam
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To: wardaddy
I saw you mentioned Indians earlier. Like you I generally lumped them into the Caucazoid group but I was corrected the other day here by someone who informed me (with links) that most Indians (particularly lower caste) were indeed Australiod/Negroid unlike Pakistanis who were more Caucazoid.

Ah, yes, the link to the Africaculture something site that tries to say that the Sumerians, Egyptians and Harappans were all Negroid.

That's garbage. India and south asia does have a few australoid and afroid tribes (like in Papua New Guinea), but these are all marginalised and mostly stone age -- shunted aside by the technologically advanced Caucasoid groups.

Pakistan was part of India until it became the land for Indian muslimes, so separating them out on basis of race is silly. The first great civilisations were either Caucasoid (Sumerian, Canaanite, Harappan) or partly so (I think Egyptians were more Semitic-Ethiopian like).
65 posted on 07/07/2004 8:18:03 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: wardaddy
From www.cia.gov:

India's Ethnic groups: Indo-Aryan 72%, Dravidian 25%, Mongoloid and other 3% (2000)
66 posted on 07/07/2004 8:32:19 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: catpuppy

Do you?


67 posted on 07/07/2004 8:39:13 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: maui_hawaii; blam
He may be referring to the Bushmen (Khoisan), the speakers of a 'click' language. They have some Oriental features and their children have 'mongoloid spots.' They also have some physical features that are unique from all other humans.

True, but Bushmen aren't Mongoloid. They're not even truly Afroid -- they seem to be an older race and quite distinct physically
68 posted on 07/07/2004 8:41:00 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Docbarleypop

Sorry to hear that Doc...Bismarck, Demons Rule!


69 posted on 07/07/2004 8:46:20 AM PDT by xone
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To: Cronos
You are probably right. I think my mind went haywire in one of my late night freeping sessions.

I just moved states and am getting settled in...

Maybe I should write what Lazamataz wrote as his tagline "proudly posting without reading the article since 1999!"

70 posted on 07/07/2004 9:14:29 AM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: Cronos

afrocentric types embrace the erroneous doctrine of 'me tooism and greatness by association' same reasoning why these articles also frequently discussed on websites like SF,etc.


71 posted on 07/07/2004 9:19:29 AM PDT by cyborg
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To: Cronos

Those all look like Indo-European languages. Do they call them Aryan where you are from? Never took many linguistic classes, so maybe I am mixed up here.

I always thought of the Aryans as that group who swept through the Indian subcontinent pushing the Dravidians towards the south and east.


72 posted on 07/07/2004 9:25:13 AM PDT by Betis70
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To: Cronos

Here is an interesting diagram of the Indo-European languages. Looks to be the same list as yours, but I like the way it diagrams the 'distance' from the proto-language (if you can call it that).

http://www.bartleby.com/61/indoeuro.html


73 posted on 07/07/2004 9:27:31 AM PDT by Betis70
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To: xone

GO BRAVES!!!


74 posted on 07/07/2004 9:40:02 AM PDT by Docbarleypop (Navy Doc)
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To: Docbarleypop

Yeah, we pumped those dogs at every turn Doc.


75 posted on 07/07/2004 10:01:39 AM PDT by xone
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To: Cronos

It could be argued that China is now totally Christian.


76 posted on 07/07/2004 10:03:42 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: Cronos
Pakistan was part of India until it became the land for Indian muslimes, so separating them out on basis of race is silly

A cogent point I neglected to reply with.

77 posted on 07/07/2004 11:31:46 AM PDT by wardaddy (Bill Cosby for Black Culture Czar!)
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To: Cronos
"Xinjiang belongs to Central Asia, a place where Iranic and Indic tribes were known to have roamed for millennia. "

These 'Celtic-like' people were in the area prior to any Iranian or Indian tribes, they did come later though.

78 posted on 07/07/2004 12:50:53 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

"Also, I've read much speculation that the Mandans may be the remnants of the Prince Madoc (Welsh) group that came to the US in 1170AD...Lately I've read 540AD."

I think that story belongs in "Chariots of the Gods" or Atlantis.

A number of recent books have theorized that the Americas may have been settled in remote times - post glacial - by separate waves of settlers from Asia, possibly western Europe and even Africa who melded to produce the modern Amerindian, but the last waves of immigration from eastern Asian Mongolian Type people predominated. Contemporary Amerindian Languages fall into three groups: the mainstream Amerindian languages, Athabaskan languages and the Eskimo-Innuit Languages - in order of probable arrival from Asia. Some linguists believe that more than 11,000 years was necessary for the degree of diversity noted in the non-Athabaskan, non-Eskimo type languages to have developed.
They also note that the number of different Ameridian linguistic families increases as you go from east to west across the North American continent which tends to indicate that the original dipersal point was somewhere along the west coast of North America.

There have been other studies done on blood types linking Amerindians predominantly to eastern Asians with one possible blood type found in western Europe - and NOT derived from recent intermarriage.

I read a recent book about a theory that eastern Asians, possibly linked to the Ainu type people, sailed around the north Pacific during Glacial times and actually made it further south prior to the glacial retreats beginning around 11,000 B.C. There was an ongoing argument for some time between the pre-Clovis and Clovis theorists, but there have been pretty convincing finds in South America and eastern U.S. to indicate that there were modern human types in the Americas well before the Clovis culture.

As for historic visits prior to Columbus, I haven't read anything serious other than indications that Norsemen were clearly here in the 1000's. probably from Greenland and definitely in Newfoundland where a Norse settlement has been actually unearthed.


79 posted on 07/07/2004 1:27:30 PM PDT by ZULU
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To: Betis70
Bricks with molded designs unearthed in Chongqing

www.chinaview.cn 2004-01-12 20:52:43

CHONGQING, Jan. 12 (Xinhuanet) -- Archaeologists in southwest China's Chongqing municipality have unearthed more than 20 pieces of brick reliefs from a tomb of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 A.D.-220 A.D.).

Lin Bizhong, a noted archaeologist with the Chongqing MunicipalArchaeological Team, said this was the first time that bricks withmolded designs had been unearthed in Chongqing.

Previously, such tomb bricks had been excavated from Sichuan province, southwest China, and have been included as relics under state key protection.

Lin acknowledged that the brick-and-stone-structured tomb, from which brick reliefs were unearthed, had been robbed, so they did not find anything valuable in the tomb besides the bricks.

Designs on the bricks include horse-drawn carriages accompaniedby honor guards, the image of Fuxi, or the sun god in ancient China, and images of high-nosed and hollow-eyed people, who might be from varied ethnic groups or foreigners.

According to experts, designs of horse-drawn carriages with honor guards indicated that the tomb owner was of high social status, bricks with the image of Fuxi were important materials forstudying religion and culture at that time, and the images of foreigners reflected cultural exchanges between the East and West in Eastern Han dynasty.

Moreover, archaeologists also found traces of red color on these bricks and held that might be traces of color painting. End item

80 posted on 07/07/2004 2:49:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: ZULU
Read this:

Immigrants From The Other Side

81 posted on 07/07/2004 3:02:52 PM PDT by blam
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To: Marie
"My mom wants the rest of the article! I was reading it to her over the phone and the link just left us hangin'!"

Here you go...the whole article.

The Curse Of The Red-Headed Mummy

82 posted on 07/07/2004 3:07:09 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Wow that is a cool article! My speciality was lithic analysis and we all used to 'lust' after Clovis and Solutrean points, in the sense of getting to that level of flintknapping ability. I left the field around the time they started this research. Very interesting.

All those guys in that article are major league researchers.


83 posted on 07/07/2004 3:25:49 PM PDT by Betis70
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To: cyborg
afrocentric types embrace the erroneous doctrine of 'me tooism and greatness by association' same reasoning why these articles also frequently discussed on websites like SF,etc

TRue. And it's silly. Black Africa is separated into so many different groups, nay, races -- the Negroids in the West and South and the Ethiopians-Somalis in the East and the Bushmen in the south. Ethiopians-Nubians etc have a long history dating before pharoanic times. Negroids have a shorter history but had a great kingdom in Benin and Ghana.
84 posted on 07/07/2004 3:30:33 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: blam
"These people may have established these traditions and customs."

I doubt that, Chinese civilization is very very old, and pretty as advanced as western civilization at any given time, until the industrail revolution.

85 posted on 07/07/2004 3:32:34 PM PDT by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: Betis70
Those all look like Indo-European languages. Do they call them Aryan where you are from? Never took many linguistic classes, so maybe I am mixed up here.

Indo-European is interchangeable with Aryan IMHO. Arya is taken from the Sanskrit-Avestan word for noble man. The Aryans/Indo-Europeans did move into India driving another Caucasian group, the Dravidians, to the south. At the same time they moved west into Anatolia, to form the Mittani and Hittite 'empires'. They then moved further west into Europe
86 posted on 07/07/2004 3:33:27 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Betis70

GReat diagram!


87 posted on 07/07/2004 3:35:35 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: RightWhale
It could be argued that China is now totally Christian.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?
88 posted on 07/07/2004 3:36:05 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: blam
These 'Celtic-like' people were in the area prior to any Iranian or Indian tribes, they did come later though

I don't know on what basis you call them 'Celtic-like'. There doesn't seem to be a valid reason for that. Celtic is not a race, it's a language group. The 'sub-races' in the main three branches are very difficult to separate unless we take extreme examples and mostly not even then (except for Afroids).

What I mean by that is that there is next to no pointable standard diversity between the sub-groupings in the Caucasian or Mongoloid races. Afroids have a lot more diversity. I think this was proved genetically as well giving credence to the out of Africa theory.
89 posted on 07/07/2004 3:39:23 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: jpsb
I doubt that, Chinese civilization is very very old, and pretty as advanced as western civilization at any given time, until the industrail revolution.

well, yes and no. Chinese civilisation IS very old but mostly based in the heartland i.e. eastern China. The Xinjiang area was not really Chinese in population until pretty recently.

Chinese civilisation also borrowed a lot from it's neighbours -- for instance Buddhism, the architecture of pagodas, martial arts etc. were all brought to China by Buddhist missionaries from the Indian continent.
90 posted on 07/07/2004 3:43:24 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Cronos
How do you arrive at that conclusion?

It's not really a conclusion, more of a stray thought. Early Christians, some of them, had communes and might be considered prototypical communists. Secular communism is what they bought in China, but they might have been predisposed for it by early religious communal thinking.

91 posted on 07/07/2004 4:01:31 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: RightWhale
It's not really a conclusion, more of a stray thought. Early Christians, some of them, had communes and might be considered prototypical communists. Secular communism is what they bought in China, but they might have been predisposed for it by early religious communal thinking.

Do note that the idea of communes etc. is pre-Christian and in China seems to have been brought along with Buddhism. The Chinese form of communism is really nothing more than totalitarianism -- something China has experienced for the past 2000 years. It's like Russia -- they are not used to democracy, they've always been ruled by a ruler with an iron fist and cannot adjust to anything else. Compare these nations to nations that are more used to chaos viz. democracy(!) like th US, the UK, India etc. They have long histories of multiple groupings within the country with no centralised power lasting for too long.
92 posted on 07/07/2004 4:37:53 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: ZULU
"I think that story belongs in "Chariots of the Gods" or Atlantis."

Hey, we have a plaque here at the mouth of Mobile Bay (Ft Morgan) commerating Prince Madoc's landing here in 1170AD. (No kidding)

93 posted on 07/07/2004 4:48:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: ZULU
(Prince) Madoc In America
94 posted on 07/07/2004 4:51:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos
"I don't know on what basis you call them 'Celtic-like'. There doesn't seem to be a valid reason for that."

Read the book, The Mummies Of Urumchi, Dr Elizabeth Barber makes a direct connection to the mummies in the Tarim Basin to the Celtic/La Tene people around Hallstadt, Austria. In fact, chapter #7 in her book is titled, Hami (NW corner of Turfan Basin) and Hallstatt

And, Dr Victor Mair/Dr J.P. Malloy make similar connections in their book, The Tarim Mummies.

95 posted on 07/07/2004 5:09:30 PM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos
"well, yes and no. Chinese civilisation IS very old but mostly based in the heartland i.e. eastern China. The Xinjiang area was not really Chinese in population until pretty recently."

Chinese skeletons started showing up in this region about 100BC, previous to that, they were all Caucasoid.

96 posted on 07/07/2004 5:13:35 PM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos

No doubt. A lot of Christianity was also pre-Christian. Makes the new thing more palatable if it is like the old thing.


97 posted on 07/07/2004 5:19:06 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: Betis70
"Wow that is a cool article! "

You'll like this one too. Ever heard of mummies in Florida?

Bye Bye Beringia (7-8,000 Year Old Site In Florida)

Be sure to go to and click on post #51. 'European' DNA in the 90 preserved brains.

98 posted on 07/07/2004 5:28:57 PM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos
You may find this interesting

Celtic Found To Have Ancient Roots

99 posted on 07/07/2004 5:36:17 PM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos
" The first great civilisations were either Caucasoid (Sumerian, Canaanite, Harappan) or partly so (I think Egyptians were more Semitic-Ethiopian like)."

Dr Stephen Oppenheimer, in his book, Eden In The East, and Dr Robert Schoch, in his book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, make reasonable arguments that the first Sumerians were refugees from Sundaland, in SE Asia, that went underwater about 8,000 years ago.

100 posted on 07/07/2004 7:13:36 PM PDT by blam
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