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I Wanna Be Ready to Put on a Long White Robe – A Homily for the Second Sunday of Advent
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 12-08-18 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 12/09/2018 7:45:01 AM PST by Salvation

I Wanna Be Ready to Put on a Long White Robe – A Homily for the Second Sunday of Advent

December 8, 2018

Preaching of John the Baptist, Baciccio (1690)

But who may abide the day of his coming and who shall stand when he appeareth? This is the cry that goes up from the final pages of the Old Testament (Mal 3:2). The Lord himself gives the answer:

See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; lest I come and strike the land with doom! (Mal 4:5-6)

With these words the Old Testament ends.

The New Testament opens in the desert near the banks of the River Jordan, with John the Baptist, of whom Jesus says, He is the Elijah who was to come (Mt 11:14). In John the Baptist is the fulfillment of the Elijah figure, who was to come to prepare the hearts of the people for the great coming of the Messiah.

All of this leads us to this Sunday’s Gospel, in which John the Baptist summons the faithful to repentance so that they will be ready when the Messiah arrives. Those of us who want to be ready also need to go into the wilderness and listen to John’s message: Prepare the way of the Lord! Although only the Lord can finally get us ready, we must be able to say to Him, “I’m as ready as I can be.”

Let’s look at this Gospel reading in three stages, going into the wilderness with John the Baptist as our teacher:

1. Context – Luke sets forth the context meticulously: In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the desert.

What’s going on here? Why all the specifics? It almost seems as if we are reading an ancient Middle Eastern phone book or a “Who’s Who in the Eastern Mediterranean.” Yes, notice the following:

The Prestige – You might say that this is a parade of the prestigious, a roll call of royalty, a list of leaders! There is an emperor (i.e., the federal government), a local governor (i.e., the state government), three tetrarchs (state and local officials), and two religious (and secular) leaders. Anybody who is anybody is in the list, yet it was not to any of them that the Word of God came.

The Person – It was John the Baptist, the simple man in the desert, to whom the Word came. Who? He was not on anyone’s list! John the who? Where do you say he lives? He doesn’t live in the palace or even in Jerusalem? Recall these Scripture passages:

But God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God (1 Cor 1:27-29).

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure (Luke 10:21).

He has lifted up the lowly, and the rich he has sent away empty. To this simple, unlettered man, the Word of God came, and many went out to hear him speak the Word of God in wisdom.

The Place – Where is the Word of God proclaimed? Where is John the Baptist found? Where will Jesus appear? In a palace? In the “Ivy League” town of Jerusalem? No indeed; not in a palace, not in some air-conditioned environment, not in a place of power, but in a place of vulnerability, where one experiences one’s limitations. In the desert, neediness reaches out and grabs you. Yes, it is in a hot desert that the prophet was found.

It is in this hostile climate that we go to hear the call and feel its power. Do you understand the context? It is not be overlooked. The context is not found in the halls of power; it is found in the desert, where thirst and hunger hit rich and poor alike. It is here that the Word of God is found and heard.

2. Call – The text says, John went throughout the whole region of the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, as it is written in the book of the words of the prophet Isaiah: A voice of one crying out in the desert.

Here we have a basic biblical call, “Repent and believe in the good news!” John said this, but so did Jesus in His opening call: After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!” (Mk 1:14 -15)

There must be balance in preaching. Repent and believe the good news! Modern thinking and practice have strayed from this kerygmatic balance between “Repent” and “Believe the good news!” Many today only want to hear or proclaim the “good news.” The good news only makes sense, though, if we understand that we are in dire need of a divine physician. Repenting sets the stage for the good news.

As we have discussed in other posts, metanoia means more than moral conversion. It means, more literally, to have one’s thinking changed (meta = change, noia = thought), to have one’s mind renewed, to think in a new way. The basic message is to have our mind converted from worldly self-satisfaction and self-righteousness and to be convinced of our need for forgiveness and for a savior. Yes, we are sinners in need of a savior. We are bound for eternal death and destruction and cannot save ourselves. There is good news, though: the Savior is here, even at the door! We must arise and be ready to answer when He knocks.

Our modern world, concerned more with comfort and relief than with healing, needs to experience something of the desert. There’s nothing like it to remind us of our frailty and neediness. Today in the Church we often try to make everyone feel comfortable; we don’t want to risk talking about sin or other controversial topics because it might unsettle someone. Where’s the desert in that? John wasn’t found in some air-conditioned marble palace. He was in the searing desert with no creature comforts to be found. There was and is just the call to come to a new mind, to reorder misplaced priorities, to surrender self-righteousness, and to accept that we are frail sinners who need a savior.

With the “bad news” established, the good news makes sense—and it really is good news: the savior is near, even at the door. However, we have to go out into the desert and listen to a humble man, not one of the rich and powerful. We must listen to John, a man clothed in camel hair and subsisting on wild honey and locusts.

He does proclaim good news, but we must be ready for it.

3. Content – What does it mean to repent? John says, Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low. The winding roads shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Notice the elements of the content:

Ready – The text says, Prepare the way of the Lord. This is a hectic season; we’re all getting ready for Christmas, but mostly in a social way (buying presents, going to parties, and decorating the house). Will we be spiritually ready for Christmas? We know how to get ready for a lot of things. We prepare for tax day. We make sure to be on time for work. We know how to catch a plane. We know how to get to a movie or a sporting event at the right time. We spend years getting ready for careers. Why don’t we spend more time getting ready for God? The one thing that is most certain is that we will die one day and stand before God. Are you ready? As the text says, Prepare the way of the Lord! This world will pass away, but the things of God remain. Careers and promotions are not certain, but death and judgment are. Why do we get ready for uncertain, worldly things and yet not spend time on spiritual things?

Right – The text says, make straight his paths. The winding roads shall be made straight! A winding road is a symbol of shifting priorities, of waywardness, of a heart that is not steadfast and straight. Too often we are all over the moral map; we are inconsistent and crooked. Scripture says,

In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths (Prov 3:6).

Put away from you crooked speech and put devious talk far from you. Let your eyes look directly forward, and your gaze be straight before you. Take heed to the path of your feet, then all your ways will be sure. Do not swerve to the right or to the left; turn your foot away from evil (Prov 4:24-27).

Consider this example. If I am driving from Washington, D.C. to New York City and see a sign that says, “South to Richmond,” I know that following the sign would be foolish; it would lead me in the wrong direction. We know how to set a course for worldly destinations and how to avoid going the wrong way, but what about our course home to Heaven? We might sing, “I’m on my way to Heaven and I’m so glad the world can’t do me no harm,” but then we see an exit marked, “Sin City, Next Exit” and sure enough we take it. Why? Many of us are outraged to hear that we can’t just go whichever way we please, do whatever we want, and still end up in Heaven. Then comes all the anger directed at the Church, the Bible, the preacher, and anyone who might remind us that we have to make straight the ways of the Lord. You can’t go down to go up. You can’t turn left or right and say you’re going straight. Thus, the text says that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

Reverent – The text says, Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low.

The mountain represents pride. Every sin is rooted in pride, because it asserts that our way is better than God’s. We think that we know better than God. We are modern; Scripture is old fashioned. We are with it while the Church is out of touch. This is the mountain of pride and we must let it go. God hates pride; He just can’t stand it. There is nothing that excludes us more from Heaven than pride, thinking that we know better than God does.

The valley symbolizes low self-esteem and despair. It may not be obvious, but a lot of sins come from low self-esteem. For example, we gossip and denigrate others because we think that if they are brought low, we will feel better about our own self. We also give way to peer pressure easily because we can only feel better about our own self if we “fit in” and are approved by others. Sometimes we’ll even sin in order to accomplish that. Some young women will fornicate for the price of a nice meal, selling their bodies for less than a prostitute would—all because they fear that they won’t be loved if they don’t. Young men pressure young women and disrespect them because they think that they must in order to “be a man.” Many young men join gangs—even drop out and commit crimes—all to “belong” and be “cool.” Low self-esteem is an ugly business that leads us to commit many sins. These valleys have to be filled in.

The solution to both pride and low self-esteem is fear of the Lord, reverence. The fear of human beings and what they will think is at the root of much sin. That is why the Scriptures admonish us to fear the Lord instead. When I fear the Lord, I don’t need to fear anyone else. When I reverence the Lord, my pride is dissolved. Mountains are made low and valleys are leveled when we have a reverential and loving fear of the Lord.

Refined – The text says, the rough ways shall be made smooth. Rough ways are filled with obstacles, stumbling blocks, and pitfalls. What are some of the things that hinder our ways? What are some of our obstacles and pitfalls?

What are some of the specific things that cause me to stumble? Are they habits, excesses, or unlawful pleasures? What are the things that make me rough and difficult to live with? Am I unyielding, unforgiving, unmerciful, or unkind? Am I lax, frivolous, unspiritual, or unaccountable? What are the rough ways in me and in my path that need smoothing? What trips me up? What in me needs softening and smoothing?

Recognizing – The text says, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God. The Greek word used in this passage is ὁράω (horao). While it is translated as “see,” it involves an active receptivity, more in the sense of looking than merely having something overshadow us or cross our visual path. The danger is that we can close our eyes. Thus, we must remain active and receptive. We must look for salvation and redemption; we must seek it. It is a gift, but we must open our eyes and accustom ourselves to its light and to its ways.

Learning the ways of the faith is very much like learning a language. Until we learn the letters, the meaning of the words, and the grammar, a different language can look or sound like gibberish. For many today, the ways of faith are just that: gibberish. For us who believe, though, because we have been made ready for God, because we make straight his paths, because we reverence God and reject roughness, we are able to recognize our redemption and rejoice in its presence.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: ealgeone
Well yeah, duh and Amen!

How good and how pleasant it is, dwelling in unity. I hope this lasts more than 30 seconds, or whenever the next urge to post hits us!

41 posted on 12/10/2018 7:20:14 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Your understanding of the Scriptures is shall we say....unique. You're reading into the Scriptures your Roman Catholic indoctrination.

Yes...salvation is from the Jews. They were originally to be the priests...but we know how that worked out.

We have salvation because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

An individual has to either accept or reject that....on an individual level.

Can we help that lost unsaved individual by sharing the Gospel? Yes. We are called to do that.

The error comes if someone fails to see that we are stewards of grace, stewards of salvation, and instead misinterpret us a rivals or competitors of Christ, or usurpers of His prerogatives. Nothing could be further from the truth.,/I>

At the individual level we do this. We don't have a bank of salvation we can give to one or another. Your salvation is your own.

For instance, to interpret most Christians' veneration of Mary as idolatry, as if she were being put up as a kind of goddess, a fourth-person-of-the-Trinity, is to miss that actually "salvation is from the Jews" and Jesus is from Mary, His Jewish Mother (which is what makes Him a Jew!) And the Incarnation proceeded because of her handmaidenly cooperation, to be mother of Incarnate God.

Yet that is exactly what Roman Catholicism has done. Mary has been elevated to the fourth person of the Trinity though just not dogmatically....yet. The fifth marian dogma will just about do that when it's passed.

Yes....Roman Catholics do worship Mary as amply demonstrated in these threads. They have accorded to her many of the same titles as Christ:

mediatrix v mediator;

co-redemptrix v redeemer;

advocatrix v advocate

reliance upon Mary for salvation v reliance upon Christ for salvation;

praying TO Mary v praying TO Christ;

Morning Star v Bright and Morning star;

These are but a few....and trust me....there are plenty more.

Consider this prayer to Mary:

My most beloved Lady, I thank thee for having delivered me from Hell as many times as I have deserved it by my sins. Miserable creature that I was, I was once condemned to that prison, and perhaps already, after the first sin, the sentence would have been put into execution, if thou, in thy compassion hadst not helped me. http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/hope3.htm

TAKEN FROM THE GLORIES OF MARY by St. Alphonsus Liguori Redemptorist Fathers, 1931 with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur Published on the Web with Permission

Now, compare that falsehood with the Word of God:

1I will extol You, O LORD, for You have lifted me up, And have not let my enemies rejoice over me. 2 O LORD my God, I cried to You for help, and You healed me. 3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:1-3 NASB

God delivers the sinner from Hell....not Mary. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this.

Yes....Roman Catholics do worship Mary in word and deed.

42 posted on 12/10/2018 7:42:44 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
If you have the abridged version (66 books), you're....

Consistent with (what evidenced best supports) the most ancient OT canon, and thus with the tripartite canon Christ affirmed as "all the Scriptures," and the NT church, and with many Catholic scholars down thru history and right into Trent, which provided the first indisputable canon for RCs.

For those who want to protest, read here first, RC propaganda has been refuted time and again here on FR by the grace of God.

Excerpts:

The strongest evidence shows the apocryphal books were not included in the Hebrew Canon of Jesus day. The Palestinian canon from before the earliest (late century) conciliar lists Roman Catholics point to is held by many as being identical to the Protestant Old Testament, differing only in the arrangement and number of the books, while the Alexandrian canon, referred to as the Septuagint is seen as identical to the Catholic Old Testament. Ancient evidence as well as the Lord's affirmation of a tripartite canon in Lk. 24:44 weighs in favor of the Palestinian canon — if indeed there was a strict separation — being what He held to. Note that the so-called “Council” of Jamnia, and see below , is considered to be theoretical, with some scholars arguing that the Jewish canon was fixed during the Hasmonean dynasty (140 and c. 116 B.C.). — (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia) The Catholic Encyclopedia itself affirms the Palestinian canon as consisting of the same books.

“The protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

Manuscripts of anything like the capacity of Codex Alexandrinus were not used in the first centuries of the Christian era, and since in the second century AD the Jews seem largely to have discarded the Septuagint…there can be no real doubt that the comprehensive codices of the Septuagint, which start appearing in the fourth century AD, are all of Christian origin.

Nor is there agreement between the codices which the Apocrypha include...Moreover, all three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/01/legendary-alexandrian-canon.html)

Edward Earle Ellis writes, No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

British scholar R. T. Beckwith states, Philo of Alexandria's writings show it to have been the same as the Palestinian. He refers to the three familiar sections, and he ascribes inspiration to many books in all three, but never to any of the Apocrypha....The Apocrypha were known in the church from the start, but the further back one goes, the more rarely are they treated as inspired. (Roger T. Beckwith, "The Canon of the Old Testament" in Phillip Comfort, The Origin of the Bible [Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2003] pp. 57-64)

43 posted on 12/10/2018 8:47:51 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

Clear evidence though it will be rejected by Roman Catholics....most are too deep to see their error.


44 posted on 12/10/2018 8:55:11 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: Salvation

I’m gonna put on a iron shirt (under the white robe!)

“Max Romeo - Chase The Devil”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9oLSMSW4SI


45 posted on 12/10/2018 9:21:08 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: ealgeone

I’ll publicly say that it isn’t a teaching of the church. I already did say that.

I’ll publicly say that bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the thread, but to start an argument is trolling. Get a hobby besides eating chips and berating Catholics.


46 posted on 12/10/2018 9:44:08 AM PST by nobamanomore
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To: nobamanomore
Roman Catholicism likes to do this little verbal gymnastics and a wink-wink, nod-nod on these issues. Their popes endorse it, their "doctors" endorse it, their followers endorse it....yet some say it's not a "teaching" of the church.

If it's not a teaching then why are so many Roman Catholics believing it??

If it is not a teaching then everyone who is supporting/encouraging this, needs to publicly say this is false teaching.

Unless the Vatican is doing that they're not denying this to be a false teaching.

I’ll publicly say that bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the thread, but to start an argument is trolling. Get a hobby besides eating chips and berating Catholics.

Based on the extensive writings on this issue I'd say it is pertinent to the thread topic.

47 posted on 12/10/2018 10:00:08 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: nobamanomore
You might want to check out the latest posting from salvation from the msgr today.

He's making the point I'm making....

48 posted on 12/10/2018 10:02:26 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: ealgeone
One who misrepresents Catholic doctrine in the fashion you have just done, in the preceding post, must do so comprehensively. This is unsurprising. Why? Because one must begin with premises which are false, and then filter everything he sees and hears through those premises.

Hence everything is distorted, but distorted in the same direction.

For instance, I posit that everything aboutMary is premised in her being a creature, a handmaid of the Lord, the first indeed to accept Jesus as her personal Savior ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") --- you posit that we Catholic regard her as a goddess to be adored on a par with God. It's simply not true.

This distortion makes sense to you because you claim to know better than Catholics, what Catholics actually believe.

To a person who holds such an astonishing presumption I could say, "But stop right there,that is not what I believe," and expect the rejoinder, "Hush, I know what you believe. You don't."

I say, go ahead with what you may call a dialog, but leave me out of it. Your kind of dialog runs smoother when you do it on your own.

49 posted on 12/10/2018 10:18:58 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: ealgeone
One who misrepresents Catholic doctrine in the fashion you have just done, in the preceding post, must do so comprehensively. This is unsurprising. Why? Because one must begin with premises which are false, and then filter everything he sees and hears through those premises.

Hence everything is distorted, but distorted in the same direction.

For instance, I posit that everything aboutMary is premised in her being a creature, a handmaid of the Lord, the first indeed to accept Jesus as her personal Savior ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") --- you posit that we Catholic regard her as a goddess to be adored on a par with God. It's simply not true.

This distortion makes sense to you because you claim to know better than Catholics, what Catholics actually believe.

To a person who holds such an astonishing presumption I could say, "But stop right there,that is not what I believe," and expect the rejoinder, "Hush, I know what you believe. You don't."

I say, go ahead with what you may call a dialog, but leave me out of it. Your kind of dialog runs smoother when you do it on your own.

50 posted on 12/10/2018 10:20:04 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: ealgeone
One who misrepresents Catholic doctrine in the fashion you have just done, in the preceding post, must do so comprehensively. This is unsurprising. Why? Because one must begin with premises which are false, and then filter everything he sees and hears through those premises.

Hence everything is distorted, but distorted in the same direction.

For instance, I posit that everything aboutMary is premised in her being a creature, a handmaid of the Lord, the first indeed to accept Jesus as her personal Savior ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") --- you posit that we Catholic regard her as a goddess to be adored on a par with God. It's simply not true.

This distortion makes sense to you because you claim to know better than Catholics, what Catholics actually believe.

To a person who holds such an astonishing presumption I could say, "But stop right there,that is not what I believe," and expect the rejoinder, "Hush, I know what you believe. You don't."

I say, go ahead with what you may call a dialog, but leave me out of it. Your kind of dialog runs smoother when you do it on your own.

51 posted on 12/10/2018 10:20:05 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: ealgeone

I have no idea why my reply went out in triplicate. That’s OK. It takes no extra effort to ignore it three times.


52 posted on 12/10/2018 10:22:58 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
If another denomination was making those claims would you dismiss those?

For instance, I posit that everything aboutMary is premised in her being a creature, a handmaid of the Lord, the first indeed to accept Jesus as her personal Savior ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") --- you posit that we Catholic regard her as a goddess to be adored on a par with God. It's simply not true.

Rome's own writings are saying it for anyone who is willing to look at it objectively.

53 posted on 12/10/2018 10:43:21 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: daniel1212
You've started out with the premise that my view of the canon is based on "Catholic propaganda." This premise is not true. As a false premise makes a poor starting point for a good discussion, this will be short.

The best scholarship I've ever read abut the formation of the Canon was "Whose Bible Is It?" by Jaroslav Pelikan.

Pelikan's immersion in Protestant and Jewish Scriptural studies, and his knowedge of Greek and Latin, and of Hebrew and other Ancient Middle Eastern languages is daunting: the "Whose Bible" book is good point of entry.

Pelikan began his theological research career as a Reformation scholar. His dissertation was on Luther and the Confessio Bohemica and he remained a Lutheran and a Reformation expert through the first seven decades of his life, before being received into the Orthodox Church at, I think, the age of 75.

I relate all this about Pelikan because the one thing he never was in his life, is a Catholic. And he's my main source.

Since I'm no scholar myself (my Hebrew doesn't go beyond "Baruch ata Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha'olam") I have to rely on various people who are.

At this point, any discussion between you and me on the canon, would be volleys of paragraph-long quotes from people we consider good scholars, the first salvoes of which you have already lobbed over the wall. Since you have pre-judged and pre-rejected my own position as "Catholic propaganda," I do not sense much likelihood of open, respectful discussion.

So I here I must say bye, I have sweet potatoes to mash.

54 posted on 12/10/2018 11:32:51 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: ealgeone
Then please have your discussion with some other dialog partner who will recite lines consistent with your view of what Catholics are supposed to be.

#54

55 posted on 12/10/2018 12:13:40 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, unto Christ Our God.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom; Mom MD; Elsie; daniel1212; boatbums
For instance, I posit that everything aboutMary is premised in her being a creature, a handmaid of the Lord, the first indeed to accept Jesus as her personal Savior ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") --- you posit that we Catholic regard her as a goddess to be adored on a par with God. It's simply not true.

That Mary is a created being compounds the error of Roman Catholicism.

Rome is taking a created being and equating to that being goddess like abilities and is treating that being with the worship one would of a goddess.

Roman Catholics may try to dance around the issue by declaring Mary is not a god, as an eternal being, all knowing, etc....but that is pretty much how she is being treated.

The prayers TO Mary, the kneeling before idols of her, the multiple statements claiming one has to go through her to get to Jesus...or even have a shot at salvation, the feminized version of the titles ascribed reserved for Christ that have been ascribed to her....all those scream worship to one looking in on Roman Catholicism.

Romans 8:26 tells us the Holy Spirit is able to do hear and understand the prayer of every believer.

Roman Catholicism has equated to Mary the abilities of the Holy Spirit in her "ability" to hear, answer, and understand each and every prayer of the Roman Catholic....just as the Holy Spirit.

It that isn't error I don't know what else it.

Presuming there are 1,000,000,000 Roman Catholic and each one says one prayer a day....just one....that's 11,574 prayers a second Mary has to be able to hear, perfectly respond to and answer....and instruct Christ on what to do.

Still say she's not treated like a goddess in Roman Catholicism?

Now before you say God can grant anyone abilities if He desires, which He could, let us consider the following.

Roman Catholicism says He could not keep Jesus sinless while being birthed through Mary which gave rise to Rome introducing the error of the Immaculate Conception which as has been demonstrated is not supported by Scripture nor found in Scripture and contradicts Scripture.

Think about this....Rome is saying God can grant Mary the ability to handle prayers on a level with that of the Spirit....yet He cannot preserve His only begotten Son from being contaminated by sin while being carried by a being HE CREATED!!!

Below is but one of many Roman Catholic prayers to Mary....it is the "morning consecration prayer to Mary" compared to the Greatest Commandment.

An honest mind will the idolatry of the Roman Catholic prayer when compared to Scripture.

Consecration to Mary Greatest Commandment from Matthew 22:37-38 NASB
My Queen and my Mother,

I give myself entirely to you;

and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart,

my whole being without reserve.

Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me,

as your property and possession. Amen.

37And He said to him,

“ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART,

AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL,

AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

38“This is the great and foremost commandment.

If you substituted any other name in the consecration prayer you would quickly identify the falseness of the prayer and denounce it. But because your denomination has said it's "ok" you don't question it.

The Roman Catholic is devoting their entire being to a created being....not the Creator....but the created.

Still say Roman Catholicism doesn't treat Mary like a goddess??

You have been deceived if you say no.

56 posted on 12/10/2018 12:24:10 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: ealgeone
The belief one has to go through Mary for example.

How do you propose to access salvation except through the Incarnate Christ?

How do you propose to have an Incarnate Christ except through Mary?

57 posted on 12/10/2018 1:51:00 PM PST by Campion ((marine dad))
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To: ealgeone
If you substituted any other name in the consecration prayer

But we didn't, did we?

Now, if you give yourself entirely to Mary, what do you suppose she will do with you? Here's a hint: her final words recorded in Scripture, are: "Do whatever [Jesus] tells you".

58 posted on 12/10/2018 1:54:42 PM PST by Campion ((marine dad))
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To: Campion
>>The belief one has to go through Mary for example.<<

How do you propose to access salvation except through the Incarnate Christ?

How do you propose to have an Incarnate Christ except through Mary?

The New Testament answers this.

How do you answer this statement by Christ?

1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”

6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 14:1-6 NASB

The Greek behind v6 makes it emphatically clear there is no way to the Father but through Him. No allowance is ever made in the NT that we have to go through Mary, or appeal to Mary, or count on Mary, for our salvation.

If we had to go through Mary as Roman Catholic writers have wrongly asserted then John, and Jesus, and the New Testament writers, never reveal that. That's a pretty important lapse in what is required for salvation.

More from John....

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:1-13 NASB

Still more.....

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him,

“How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

30“I and the Father are one.”

John 10:22-30 NASB

What is seen in the New Testament is the consistent requirement of believing in Christ for our salvation. There are no others we have to go through. Only HE is our mediator....no. one. else.

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 NASB

We can freely approach Him anytime, anyplace for any reason and He will hear us and He will answer us.

59 posted on 12/10/2018 2:07:28 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: Campion
>>If you substituted any other name in the consecration prayer...<<<

But we didn't, did we?

It doesn't matter. That Roman Catholicism has the consecration prayer is the point. The consecration prayer is in contradiction of the Greatest Commandment. That's the point.

Now, if you give yourself entirely to Mary, what do you suppose she will do with you?

Nothing....for she has ZERO power over anyone. She is a created being.

The better question is how will God respond to this in light of the Greatest Commandment?

Here's a hint: her final words recorded in Scripture, are: "Do whatever [Jesus] tells you".

Yes! And what does Jesus say....

To believe in only Him for your salvation....no one else.

60 posted on 12/10/2018 2:21:29 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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