Posted on 11/29/2014 4:30:23 PM PST by BlatherNaut
“given the crusade, and the rampant unholy behavior, can you blame them?”
Yes. Do we hold a grudge about this (all kidding aside in my previous post): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins
The Greek Orthodox Church is like women. They remember that time you went to Vegas in 1972 even though you weren’t dating them at the time and throw it up at you in every argument. (And no, I am not speaking from a personal experience). The Roman Church is like men: rational. The Roman Church forgives what happened in the past - especially when it has ZERO to do with the real issues at hand.
And if anyone here is offended by my “The-Eastern-Orthodox-are-Like-Chicks-Analogy” believe me I won’t lose a minute of sleep over your discomfort.
“LCMS and WELS are not even in communion with ELCA and other so called Lutheran churches.”
True. But the LCMS is talking more to the Vatican now than WELS or ELCA. It’s on the down low, but it is happening.
You may be right.
Let us promote Jesus Christ the Savior above all, above denominations, above Rome, above minor doctrinal differences. We are saved by Christ the man/God, not by denomination or doctrine.
[my apologies, I had not realized that the Lutherans had suffered such a split]
I’m sorry for them too. Too many churches have lost their way.
IMO the various churches need to stop worrying about which of them is correct doctrinally or in other ways; they should simply live the best they know how in accordance with their beliefs.
Frank and Ernest.
“An old lady let a fart in church...she just sat in her pew!” That one kills me, Pat.
"And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren."
Who are the "brethren" in Pope Francis' mind? Cardinal Burke and the other traditional Catholic believers sure aren't feeling the love. Join the Pentecostals or the Lutherans or the Orthodox or some big box "ecclesial community" or become a schismatic or a Muslim or an atheist if you're looking for confirmation from him. Honestly begs the question: Is the Pope Catholic?
[IMO the various churches need to stop worrying about which of them is correct doctrinally or in other ways;]
Sacred covenants with God should never be broken.
After he was prayed over by evangelical pastors at a Catholic-Pentecostal rally in 2006, Cardinal Bergoglio met with them every month in their churches, arriving alone by bus and subway...
Now Francis is preparing the ground for a historic breakthrough between Catholics and evangelicals. This is his own initiative. The Vatican body in charge of dialogue, the Council for Christian Unity, only has relations with the historic Protestant churches — Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists. But most Protestant Christians no longer belong to these: Some 600 million of them, about three-quarters of Protestants worldwide, are in loose, autonomous networks of Pentecostal or “independent” churches, who worship in the charismatic style. Their rise has made the old controversies between the historic churches seem obsolete. On many moral questions they are closer to Catholics than to the mainline Protestant churches. Yet Rome has had no means of speaking to them.
Francis is changing that. In a series of private meetings brokered by old friends from his pre-papal days, he has this year spent hours in meetings with major evangelical leaders in the United States, including televangelists such as Joel Osteen, James Robison, and Kenneth Copeland, as well as the head of the World Evangelical Alliance, Geoff Tunnicliffe, and the pioneers of the “Toronto blessing,” John and Carol Arnott. In July he made the first ever private visit by a pope to a Pentecostal pastor, his old friend Giovanni Traettino, in Caserta, Italy, to apologize for the times when the Catholic Church had made life difficult for evangelicals in Italy. These are his own initiatives. The Vatican’s Council for Christian Unity is kept informed of these meetings but has no part in them.
They are convivial gatherings, in which there is joint prayer, shared meals, and plenty of laughter. Francis tells them that their shared baptism, and openness to the Holy Spirit, are enough; that a new era is opening up of relations between Catholics and evangelicals; and that they shouldn’t wait for theologians to agree before acting and witnessing together. “I’m not interested in converting evangelicals to Catholicism,” one of them later reported the Pope telling him. “I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.”
Francis sees his task as pope to open up these new spaces, responding to opportunities as they arise.In January, a South African evangelical bishop called Tony Palmer recorded an iPhone message from Francis to megachurch leaders in Texas, in which Francis humbly spoke of the miracle of unity that had begun.The video went viral, and Palmer was deluged with requests from evangelical leaders wanting to respond. In June, a month before he was tragically killed in a road accident, Palmer took a number of the leaders — together, they represented possibly 800 million Christians — to meet Francis, where they proposed signing, on the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s 95 Theses, in 2017, a “joint declaration of faith in unity for mission.” The declaration will open a new era for Christians, encouraging them to act and pray together across the world, in spite of their differences. -
For the evangelical such as being invited to a christening, in the light of the deformation y of Rome, including holding even prosodomite proabortion proMusliom pols as members in life and in death:
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
First: We are not discussing unbelievers here.
Second: You quote from a letter from Paul to Corinth. But in another letter to Corinth, Paul said, "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
Never mind Paul. After John said to Christ “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward."
Disunity among followers of the same Christ is a sin and a scandal, and all are at fault. Invoking Paul's admonition to the Corinthians regarding unbelievers to chastise your fellow Christians is seriously mistaken.
We are discussing modern ecumenism, which includes fellowship with churches which claim to represent believers but in which the majority are manifestly unregenerate.
Second: You quote from a letter from Paul to Corinth. But in another letter to Corinth, Paul said, .. I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos,
Thus he told them "not to think of men above that which is written," as they were doing. And which certainly is thinking of Peter as the first of a line of supreme exalted infallible popes to whom all the church looked to, having "full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered," and who cannot be truly deposed
For he who is not against us is for us.
But Rome is, and has been, even acting as if she had murderous demons, and even now does not even judge our churches fit to be properly called "churches." And our judgment is basically mutual.
Despite the relational present pope and his interpretation of RC teaching, it has not changed, and many interpret V2 itself as only being selectively binding, if at all, and another pope could arise whose interpretation is more medieval, and those who were hugged by Francis could latter be rather mugged. Or so many conservative RCs hope, including many here no doubt.
Or Weapons of Mass delusion.
“Is the LCMS really quietly talking to the Vatican?!”
Yes. I don’t expect reunion tomorrow, of course. I think Pope Francis might scare them away too. But I do expect more cooperation and conversation at the very least.
Pope Francis couldn't scare the Devil away. He'd probably bow and ask for a blessing.
"There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith, all else is a dispute over trifles."
- Elizabeth I
Maybe now we can see why Francis was so anxious to beatify Pope Paul VI.
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