Posted on 04/06/2013 10:46:39 AM PDT by ReformationFan
Ah, so you're telling me that Jesus didn't mean what he said? -- Besides that, if his life was taken it is entirely possible that God [the father] took it, entirely possible given the symbolism of animal sacrifice, and that in John 1:4 it says "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." If life is intrinsically in Jesus, then how could he die lest that life be removed? and how could that be done by any other than an Almighty God?
Now, all three persons of the trinity claim responsibility for the Resurrection: in the quote where Jesus says "I have power to take it again"; in John 5:21 the Father is credited w/ resurrection: "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."; and the Spirit, too, in Rom 8:1 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you".
So, if that be the case then would it be wrong to say that the Death of Christ also had the involvement of all three. Jesus, obviously choosing to die; the Father commanding Him to, and the Spirit... I'm not sure (nothing immediately jumps out).
But, in any case, your redefinition of suicide is on a completely emotional level: the definition is the intentional taking of one's own life -- and Jesus himself knew what was to happen and he assented ("your will, not mine be done").
Your refusal to acknowledge this diminishes the empathy of, and the intercessory power of, Jesus; if it were otherwise, then how could he comfort the suicidal? Moreover, your silly assertion that a suicide is a one-way ticket to hell is nothing less than the arrogant usurpation of the White Throne of Judgement -- who are you to judge the souls of men? -- and repudiation of the power of God to Keep what is His. {If they were saved, then they are saved in spite of themselves.} The only way you can wriggle out of this is to claim that suicide is proof that they were not ever saved... but what of Samson? Is he not listed in the Hebrews "Hall of Faith"? Didn't he commit suicide, even by your definition? Why then would he be listed as a hero?
An individual that commits suicide has no power but that of taking his own life....and that is weakness not strength.
Funny; Paul said: "And he said unto me, 'My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
There is no comparison of Jesus’s Sacrifical Offering of Himself...and that of One who commits suicide....one is fully for selfish reasons...the other is fully for the life of others and love for them.
Only in your definition, which I have not accepted as valid. Further, I have countered with Samson, commended in Hebrews, who committed suicide (even according to your definition).
.... Same for giving and taking life....it's truly not as difficult as you seem to be making it... But in doing so you're making Jesus’s ‘sacrificial offering of His life for ours something that it wasn't...and it wasn't a suicide.
I'll stick with the written record just as it is without trying to twist it to fit something else.
Thank you for the discussion.
The problem is that the Bible doesn’t say that we have or are born with an “eternal” spirit or soul. What it does say is that when we accept Christ as our Savior we take on his immortal spirit as our own. None of your verses contradict that.
1Corinthians 15:54 “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
As for the disagreement between what makes us up (heart-physical, soul-spiritual, mind-thoughts or body, soul, and spirit) I don’t see that as changing anything about the destruction of the souls of the unsaved as mentioned in Revelation. That argument/discussion seems like arguing over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin and off the greater topic, eternal punishMENT or eternal punishING.
I'm not saying there is not a hell. What I'm saying is that Jesus didn't give his life so we wouldn't go to hell. He gave his life so we could go to heaven.
That's what all of John 3 is saying, especially John 3:15: "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Hell wasn't created for us. It was created for Satan and his demons. If we don't choose to love God and receive the gift Jesus offers, then after we die we become Satan's and must reside in his domain, i.e.: hell.
To save us from that fate, God sent Jesus into the world as the sacrificial lamb so that His blood would be the atonement for all our sins and we can then receive our Eternal inheritance.
But, like the prodigal son, God has given us the freedom to choose our own fate. If we choose to come home, then we will receive God's love.
Nope; you're redefining 'suicide' to suit your own ideas.
Further, not only are you are utterly unwilling to indulge in other [correct/dictionary] definitions, but you fail to respond to the arguments made using your own definition.
This all indicates to me that, like the 'liberal'/'progressive' you are trying to alter the language to suit your own ends.
.... Same for giving and taking life....
Who said anything about giving life? I didn't, did I?
it's truly not as difficult as you seem to be making it... But in doing so you're making Jesus’s ‘sacrificial offering of His life for ours something that it wasn't...and it wasn't a suicide.
That is only due to your rejection of the dictionary definition, which I have indulged but not accepted. -- I'm not "making it difficult", I'm rejecting your definition precisely because you have made no argument for it being a better definition, but mere assertations.
I'll stick with the written record just as it is without trying to twist it to fit something else.
Written record? And you reject the dictionary-definition as well as Jesus's own admission that he "lays down his life" of his own will?
That's rather amusing. (BTW, dictionary suicide doesn't say anything about the one ending their life being able [or unable] to take it back.)
Thank you for the discussion.
Thank you, too.
Well stated.
Where does it say we take on the human spirit of our Lord Christ Jesus? Our human spirit is then indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. Our spirit is in our human body which becomes His temple or dwelling place which He has provided.
His human spirit is unique to Him, but we are all of one body, obedient to His Will.
Perhaps but the Bible does say we are made in the image of God. I thought that always implied an eternal soul but am enjoying the discussion
??????
I posted one of the verses which state that we take on immortality when we “take on” Christ. If you have a problem with that then either post verses which contradict that or just learn to live with the realization that only those who accept Christ will live forever. Those who don’t will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire (second death-Revelation 20:14).
I too enjoy a good spiritual discussion. 8)
As to being created in the “image” of God, I would think that means things like...our physical appearance (two eyes, two arms, etc.) is like His. I also see the “heart, soul, mind” similar to the trinity (Jesus-heart-physical manifestation, Mind-thoughts, ideas, creation-God the Father, and Holy Spirit-soul).
However, when you look at Scripture, every verse talking about everlasting/immortal life comes from believing in Jesus.
hmmm? animals have two eyes. Not sure God has any eyes or arms as he is in the spirit realm we cannot comprehend. Right or wrong I always thought what separated us from animals was an immortal soul and that our spirit element was what was meant by image of God. Having said that I can tell from this thread and reading other materials that this is a deep topic worthy of a lot of reflection and discussion. No one can really lay claim that they 'know'.
I do think physical destruction makes more sense to me than eternal torment although I am not sure it matters whether it makes sense to me or not. I saw where someone said that the Hell was designed for Satan and his demons and only they experienced eternal torment. I was then thinking that this does not solve the difficulty for me. So it was hard to accept that God would design and allow eternal torment for man but it is OK as long as it's applied to some other form (fallen angels). A fallen angel chooses to disobey as does a human. But there are different rules for angels than men? I don't see that theory being any easier to accept. interesting stuff though.
[[The next step is to check and test the spirits.]]
Thanks for the reply- I do not beleive what I experienced was physical or even of the spirit nature as it was absoltuely contrary to God’s word- I am convinced it was a high fever induiced hallucination and perhaps a Near death induced misfirign of the mind-
[[On the contrary, it had intelligence, and it is ignorantly arrogant to think somehow our insight is manifest only when we relax,]]
As I stated in my last post- them idn is a very complex thing- I never mentioend that I only experienced it because I was ‘relaxed’- infact I was anythign but relaxed- everythgin was goign haywire- I was in convulsions, throwing up, flopping around, my mind was goign berzerk- I think that because everythigtn was so contrary to God’s word that it couldn’t have been anythign BUT lucid ‘dreaming’ or lucid hallucinations whatever hte case may be-
I reamin steadfast in My faith and Sal;vation despite the horrible experience I had (although I was for a tiem quite shook- but I was also only 17 years old and very very sick and weak both phtyisically and mentally too so my mental strength was also affected and I was less strogn hten than I am now but I still held to my Slavatio nthrough Christ even i nthe darkest hours)
[[it is ignorantly arrogant to think somehow our insight is manifest only when we relax, because of only our thinking, and not the influence of others.]]
Not exactly sure hwta you’re tryign to get at here? What was the premise of your post? That you think it coudl have been an actual NDE?
[[But could it be ?]]
No- God makes it clear once saved always saved- The verses lsited here are talkign abotu htose that got almsot all the way to salvation, but hten refused to go any further to the final acceptign of Christ as personal Savior, and who then turned on God and Christ and His peopel vehemently- Yuo may have run across soem liek that in your life- I have met a few liek that- they are now bitterly apposed to God and His people- God is tellign them they were given their chance once, they will not be given antoehr chance
[[Those “ LAW PREACHERS “ and teachers would have people think that even if you backslide ? your going to hell if you don’t repent.]]
They are wrong-
[[The proper greek meaning to the word for repentance is: to have a change of mind.]]
At which point the Holy Spirit Brigns abotu a CHANGE OF SPIRIT- where hte spirit was ocne dead, it is now alive upon repentence at salvation- You pass from death unto life and no man can cause that new life to be undone- and when it says ‘no man, that means not even yourself
[[All I know is those who are APOSTATES, are those who renounce their christian faith.]]
Actually they never had a Christian faith- they only knew HOW to have a Christian faith- but they never actually received Christ by faith- A Christian can never becoem an apostate- The dictionary says ‘one who abandons one’s Christian faith’ but the dictionary is wrong- these people didn’t yet have faith- It’s true they abandoned the religion, but not their faith as they simply did not have faith in Christ yet-
you’re welcome- Yes, it was very intense- soemthign I hope to never encounter again- once was plenty- even if it was only a matter of seconds or minutes- not sure how long the convulsiosn lasted, but it couldn’t have been too long- they got me cooled down and conscious again pretty rapidly I think- it was a wierd wierd feeling coming too again and slowly realizing where I was and what I was doign there- it was kind of dreamlike- liek hwen you wake from an itnense dream and don’t know where you are-
As I said, the scariest part of the whoel thign was experiencing that aweful ‘nothingness’ as soon as it happened, it was like “Wow- this is bad’ Everythign was black, couldn’t see anythign, hear anything, feel anythign other than beign compeltely abandoned and alone- drifting through endless empty but dark and enclosed claustrophobic-like space I guess you could say- Hard to really explain I guess-
Soem religions claim when we die our ‘consciousness’ simply floats abotu space- and they play it up as beign ‘enlightened’ and ‘free’- but these folks have no idea the terror of such emptiness and abandonement by God IF it were possible to be in such a situation- which it is not of course- althiough they WILL experience such abandonement and seperation from God in hEll, but it will be a different kind of terror there- more physical and mental accordign to hte bible
[[Right or wrong I always thought what separated us from animals was an immortal soul ]]
And also our knowledge of, and agreement with, a universal moral code which guides and directs us unlike in the animal kingdome-
[[I saw where someone said that the Hell was designed for Satan and his demons and only they experienced eternal torment.]]
The bible talks abotu the man who was in hell and longed for even a drop of water (whcih indicates extreme torture) and who desperatelywanted to get word to his living kin to warn them of how bad it was where he was and not to coem htere- The place he was in was the ‘precursor to’ hell proper’ so I’m told just as the ‘paradise’ i nthe old testament was the precursor to heaven which we now have when we die (to be absent of the body is to be present with hte Lord)
[[I was then thinking that this does not solve the difficulty for me. So it was hard to accept that God would design and allow eternal torment for man but it is OK as long as it’s applied to some other form (fallen angels).]]
Why woudl it be more unnacptable for punishement of unrepentant peopel who despise God than it is for unrepentant criminals when they get sentenced to prison for hteir crimes agaisnt humanity? God in His benevolent love has given every man woman and child every chance possible to be saved when all we realyl deservede was annihilation for our sinful condition- God in His mercy, and His unfailing patience has extended the offer of fellowship and htese peopel by their own choice- (the same as criminals who choose NOT to obey the law) decide they love thesmelves mroe than their creator and woudl rather willingly go to hell than to submit to their Creator- There will be no ‘good people’ in Hell- Every person thjeir went htere willingly and with seethign hatred for God deep i ntheir souls (even if they never showed that seethign hatred on the outside)
[[Most of us were chosen for Hell long before we were even born.]]
‘CHOSEN’? Or is it that God knew we woudl NEVER choose Him, and it was ‘AFOREKNOWN that we woudl end up in hell?
Pink in his ‘Soveriengty of God’ Talks abotu how God deoes NOT ‘love the whoel world’ and how the john 3:16 is talking about ‘For God so loved HIS OWN (whcih is what the orignal word means I guess) that He gave His only begotten Son’
Whiel I agree with most of what Pink (A predestinationist/calvanist) says, I think that God does NOT choose who will be unsaved, and that even though He knows they will never be saved, nonetheless He still, in His benevolent Love, gives them every opportunity to CHOOSE Him- He even, in His benevolent love, blesses them more than Christians (remember theo ld sayign that it always appears the wicked prosper) so that htey will NOT be able to say “But you never gave me any reason to beleive in You”- or “But You never blessed me liek You did your own” etc etcc etc (insert excuse for not acceptign Him here)
There woudl be no such thing as the concept of free will IF God simpyl chose who woudl and wouldn’t be His before the foundations of world were ever laid- Whiel I am a predestinarian, I also firmly beleive the bible makes it very clear man still has free will and is not bound by a predetermined plan- (Now, one coudl aqrgue that we are boudn by a predetermined outcome based on our own choices throughout our life- but that’s antoehr discussion)
I think it’s really..bottom line...choose life. Whatever awaits those who do not.. is not going to be good.
NDE are generally experiences wherein the human spirit is separate from the body. The body might even be physically dead, but the human spirit lives separate from the body and elements of the experience is later recalled in memory.
Even dreams may be spiritually induced.
...Rev 20:13-15
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
...
I don’t see they are destroyed, rather they are cast into the Lake of Fire.
Verse 20 though seems to describe the consequence of being placed in the Lake of Fire.
Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This indicates to me that the soul cast there isn’t destroyed, but is tormented eternally.
Rev. 20:10 talks specifically about Satan, the anti-Christ and the false prophet, it isn’t talking about those lost souls that were in Hell. It does appear that those three entities are tortured forever. Why? Maybe because they are made of different stuff??? I don’t know.
What I do know is that the second death refers specifically to the unsaved souls. If the eternal torment idea was correct then “second death” makes no sense because nothing would be dying.
Plus you still have the issue that in order to be tortured for ever, you would have to be alive for ever and in order to be alive forever, you would need to be immortal and the Bible tells us that only those who accept Christ as savior take on His immortality.
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