Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
If those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost (the 120 who assembled together before they spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and before Peter preached his sermon) were already saved, were believers, had seen him ascend to heaven, etc, and the Body of Christ (the church) then must already have been in existence before the Day of Pentecost.
Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn't formed or "born" until the day of Pentecost?
Was the church just halfway outside the womb pre-Day of Pentecost? Did it have to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be born? How???
This is in response to some answers (and email) to the previous thread that I posted concerning this topic.
It might clear things up if you consider that the 'Church' formed means the organized Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as the body of Christ. The 'saved' is the fate of individuals. The proof is the existence of a 2000+ year old Church.
I wasn't aware that 'The Church' advocated speaking in tongues.
Judaism: High Priest
Catholicism: Pope
Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works
PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SAY WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES, YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.
Jesus establishes the Church:
Matthew 16:[15] Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [Matthew 16:19] [Latin] [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
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There are well over 33,000 sects “scattered” outside the one Church founded by Christ.
With subjects like this, there are never enough answers...until everyone agrees with you and says you are right.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“And he took the cup and said, Drink of this, all of you. This cup is the NEW Covenent in My blood.”
The Ekklesia of God is that locality where His Word (Logos), is rightly preached and where His Sacraments are ritely practiced. The Feast of Pentecost celebrates the Ekklesia of the post-resurrection (new berith) where-in sins are immediately forgiven through the Sacraments and the preaching of the Gospel.
There has always been a Christian ekklesia wherever there has been God’s forgiveness of Sins through Christ (pre- and post- incarnate.) The Old Testament shows God forgiving even the sins of Adam and Eve through Christ (Gen 3:15). Fast forward to many examples, not limited to: The Snake on the pole (christ typology), the parting of the Red Sea (baptism) and David’s repentance (direct forgiveness).
The marks of the Church, Gospel preaching and Sacraments reverently administered, have existed from time memorial. The change we have for the last 2000+ years is simply because God inserted Himself, bodily, into time to be that thing we could not - perfect.
So you cant know if you have it ... and you know for sure that you cant know ... that is what you do know for sure, that you cant know ...
1 John 5:11-13
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
Present tense all around ...
Doesnt say anything about "He who has the Son will find out if he has the life when he passes from this one" ... or ... "Upon death we find out if we have the life" ...
Seems like there are only two possibilities here ... either the person who is saved and has no assurance is not a mature believer ... or they are not a believer at all.
It’s like a European Union referendum - keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want.
While Jesus was with them, he was their teacher, after Jesus left he had told them to wait for the Holy Spirit to come to teach them by His indwelling Spirit. Always with believers, He will never leave us or forsake us, in Jesus name, amen.
Sinners need the Holy Spirit to teach them understanding and truth as they read and study the Scriptures. Thank Thee LORD, for thy grace, in Jesus name, amen.
I guess Paul didn't know that being "saved" was a one-time thing about which we have "assurance."
One key to figuring out the answer to what you ask (you stated it incorrectly, btw) is found in the knowledge that there are sets of persons IN HEAVEN, there because of what Jesus did for us. The bride of Christ is not the only set of those from humanity seen in Heaven revealed in The Revelation of John. You will get lots of noise by asking on an open forum, so go to your Bible and ask His SPirit to open your mind/heart to His reality. He is not bound by temporal limitations which plague we humans.
Acts 2
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what
seemed to be tongues of fire
that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to
speak in other tongues[a]
(a. Acts 2:4 Or languages; also in verse 11)
as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because
each one heard their own language being spoken.
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God
in our own tongues!”
12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
It means that in this case tongues means language.
It means that “actual fire” as we know it, wasn’t dancing about, it was something mysterious, something we have no comprehension for, something heavenly that we have no words to accurately describe.
As far as what exactly defines “the church” or when it started, WHO CARES????
We won’t know for sure who is included in “the church”, until judgment day. If your name is written in the book of life, you are IN. If not...... eternal torment in Hell
From dictionary.com:
may 1 [mey] Show IPA auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person may, 2nd may or ( Archaic ) may·est or mayst, 3rd may; present plural may; past might. 1. (used to express possibility): It may rain.
Notice it says possibility, the third definition refers to a contingency.
Nothing absolute there at all.
Paul makes several references to the possibility of losing salvation, including running the race till the end, and the olive branches being removed from the tree.
What’s tricky is that Jesus speaks of “the church” before Pentecost, as though it is something that already exists. See, for example, Matthew 18:17.
It all hinges on the meaning of the word “ekklesia,” which we translate as “church.” At its most basic, it simply means “assembly.”
People have “assembled” in the name of God for millennia ...
Verse 11 and 12, which is the context of 13 (which you ignored) is absolute.
These are present tense verbs! ... The one who has the Son ... has (present active indicative) life. Verse 13 uses the subjunctive because there is the possibility that there are those who do not have the Son, continuing the thought from verse 12!
by grace you have been saved), (Eph 2:5 NAS)
... perfect passive participle ... past tense, ongoing continuous results.
There are so many others ...
I just find it curious that those on your side fight so hard to maintain a formidable doubt concerning a persons salvation. If eternal life could be lost, as you seem to suggest, it wouldnt be eternal would it?
and verse 13 makes sure that you realize that it is a possibility if you continue to have the Son.
Tell me where is Judas now?
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