Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
(Acts 7: 37, 38): 37* This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38* This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Moses was in the church in the wilderness. This church consisted of old-testament saved saints. A church is simply a congregation, not some universal entity as pushed by Catholics and her protestant children. We are collectively called "saints" in the Bible, existing in many congregations/assemblies/churches.
Logically all it takes is one exception to invalidate a theory. Here it is--the fly in the catholic church ointment.
That’s funny...OT and Acts...lol.
The Church's constant missionary proclamation is endangered today by relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism, not only de facto but also de iure (or in principle). As a consequence, it is held that certain truths have been superseded; for example, the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the nature of Christian faith as compared with that of belief in other religions, the inspired nature of the books of Sacred Scripture, the personal unity between the Eternal Word and Jesus of Nazareth, the unity of the economy of the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ, the universal salvific mediation of the Church, the inseparability — while recognizing the distinction — of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Christ, and the Church, and the subsistence of the one Church of Christ in the Catholic Church.
The roots of these problems are to be found in certain presuppositions of both a philosophical and theological nature, which hinder the understanding and acceptance of the revealed truth. Some of these can be mentioned: the conviction of the elusiveness and inexpressibility of divine truth, even by Christian revelation; relativistic attitudes toward truth itself, according to which what is true for some would not be true for others; the radical opposition posited between the logical mentality of the West and the symbolic mentality of the East; the subjectivism which, by regarding reason as the only source of knowledge, becomes incapable of raising its “gaze to the heights, not daring to rise to the truth of being”;8 the difficulty in understanding and accepting the presence of definitive and eschatological events in history; the metaphysical emptying of the historical incarnation of the Eternal Logos, reduced to a mere appearing of God in history; the eclecticism of those who, in theological research, uncritically absorb ideas from a variety of philosophical and theological contexts without regard for consistency, systematic connection, or compatibility with Christian truth; finally, the tendency to read and to interpret Sacred Scripture outside the Tradition and Magisterium of the Church.
On the basis of such presuppositions, which may evince different nuances, certain theological proposals are developed — at times presented as assertions, and at times as hypotheses — in which Christian revelation and the mystery of Jesus Christ and the Church lose their character of absolute truth and salvific universality, or at least shadows of doubt and uncertainty are cast upon them.
Those truly seeking the truth will read, or already have read, the whole declaration:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
A clean whiff ...
What is YOUR scriptural evidence that Judas was saved? You are obviously not a 99.99% evangelical so claiming their support seems self defecating.
If your only argument for 'you can have eternal life then loose it' ... is Judas ... then I think were done here.
Church ..... Year ..... Founder ......... Where
Universal .... 33 ...... Jesus Christ ..... Jerusalem
RCC ......... 300+ .... Constantine ..... Rome
You're welcome
My pwersonal beleif is that he is in the furthest reaches of Hell, but Accoring to your teaching from your groups, he was saved. And the arguemetn was settled before you even responded.
I never have thought ... nor taught ... nor have I EVER been in a church that taught that Judas was saved.
So let me understand what you are arguing.
1. You can loose eternal life (despite it being eternal) because there is an example in the scriptures ... Judas.
2. Judas was at one time saved because ... helping to baptize people implies he himself was baptized ...
3. Because he was baptized he had to be saved.
4. And then you move directly to ... he is in the pit of hell (the only thing we agree on) ...
So in fact, you are arguing that Judas WAS saved ?
2) No one will know if they are saved until the moment of death.
3) Eternal life comes after earthly death, not before.
Until you understand these three things there is no need for further discussion.
BTW stop trying to put words in my mouth.
“Which is correct as described by Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, in 90% of the New Testament. “
...and totally, definitively disputed by the Apostle Paul. The RCC’s misinterpretation of the book of James is where they go wrong.
Essentially, faith RESULTS in works. Works have no part in salvation.
The Apostles and the Priesthood ~ Part 4 [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Apostles and the Priesthood ~ Part 3 [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Apostles and the Priesthood ~ Part 2 [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Apostles and the Priesthood ~ Part I [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. Thomas [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. Simon [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. Matthew [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. James [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. John [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. Andrew [Catholic Caucus]
The Twelve Apostles of the Catholic Church: St. Peter [Catholic Caucus]
Again ...
And this is the testimony that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has (present tense) life, he who has not the Son of God has not life. I write these things to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
John wrote his first epistle ... so that we would know.
Jesus also speaks to this issue ... consider John 10:27-28
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
and I give (yup, present active indicative again) eternal life to them ... and they shall never perish (double negative with a subjunctive aorist, yeah, it was enough to have one negative with a future ... but Jesus wanted to eliminate any possibility here) ... and no one shall snatch them (future middle ...) out of My hand.
How about John 3:8
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Do I need to say it? Yeah, present tense ... has eternal life.
My personal favorite ...
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
he has passed out of death ... into life.
I could go on and on ... you cant get away from the plain meaning of the text. The only thing you can do is reject it out of hand in favor of a prior theological view.
I urge you to consider His words ... feel free to ignore mine.
I guess you are unaware that the NT explains the OT. This is Stephen preaching in the power of the Holy Spirit, explaining the significance of the OT events, prophesying the coming of the Jusy One.
You don’t believe what the Bible says about Moses’ church in the wilderness?
1) There is no assurance of salvation.
2) No one will know if they are saved until the moment of death.
3) Eternal life comes after earthly death, not before.
Until you understand these three things there is no need for further discussion.
BTW stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Always use scripture to prove questions of scripture. The Bible never contradicts itself. After all only steel sharpens steel. You understand there are OT saints that walked with God. Enoch, Noah etc,
The NT saints were filled with the HS on Pentecost. There were also pre-Pentecost saints alive at the time of Jesus' birth. Remember, blind Nicodemus who waited in the Temple everyday, because the HS told him he would not die until Messiah came. Certainly, Mary was filled by the HS at Lord Jesus' conception.
Don't ever make the mistake of trying to put an all powerful spiritual being into a gotcha Box, which limits his power to save any fallen creature He takes pity upon.
My testimony proves that God can and God will do whatever He likes, otherwise He wouldn't be God.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We are saved when we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. That took place on a large scale on Pentecost. Therefore, it is called the birthday of the Church. However, God always supports a faithful remnant in every generation through the agency of the HS. Amen & Amen!
Agape, STD
If you have serious questions, feel free to call me on Skype
If your struggling, feel free to PM me or call. I always have time for the people of God.
I have checked my Bible ... and Matthew 16:18-19 says nothing of passing anything on to Rome or any other church.
Peter rejects your own belief about him by calling himself a fellow elder (1 Peter 5:1) ...
Deja vu ... all over again ...
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