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Explain how the church wasn't born until Pentecost if the believers were already saved pre-Pentecost
2/11/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

If those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost (the 120 who assembled together before they spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and before Peter preached his sermon) were already saved, were believers, had seen him ascend to heaven, etc, and the Body of Christ (the church) then must already have been in existence before the Day of Pentecost.

Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn't formed or "born" until the day of Pentecost?

Was the church just halfway outside the womb pre-Day of Pentecost? Did it have to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be born? How???

This is in response to some answers (and email) to the previous thread that I posted concerning this topic.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: christianchurch; pentecost; religion; salvation
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1 posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:37 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

The believers were saved before the Day of Pentecost, thus constituting the body of Christ, yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t formed until the Day of Pentecost?

Halfway outside the womb until that day?


2 posted on 02/11/2013 8:35:32 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Judaism: Constant temporary atonement for sins
Catholicism: Constant temporary atonement for sins

Judaism: High Priest
Catholicism: Pope

Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works

Take your pick. No gospel found in either case.


3 posted on 02/11/2013 8:36:31 AM PST by libdestroyer
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Salvation is atonement
Church is fellowship


4 posted on 02/11/2013 8:39:22 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Seems like the Church wasn’t formed until the Holy Spirit came to guide it forever. Remarkable growth and consistency from a start of 12.


5 posted on 02/11/2013 8:41:47 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Didn’t you get enough answers last week?


6 posted on 02/11/2013 8:46:39 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: libdestroyer

Judaism: No bacon
Catholicism: Bacon

With the greatest respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters, I choose Catholicism.


7 posted on 02/11/2013 8:48:12 AM PST by Mr. Know It All
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Yashua was the Comforter while on earth. He did say He would not leave us alone but will send another comforter to be always with you - The Holy Spirit. You come to Yashua through the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The progression was continual.


8 posted on 02/11/2013 8:49:13 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

What is “The Church”? Isn’t “The Church” the people of God, the people whom the Lord has called to Himself? If so, “The Church” began back with Abraham, when God first made a covenant with Man.


9 posted on 02/11/2013 8:50:13 AM PST by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The believers were saved before the Day of Pentecost, thus constituting the body of Christ, yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t formed until the Day of Pentecost?

Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.

Second you are forming in the womb for nine months before your actual birth. You are not half out of the womb are you?

10 posted on 02/11/2013 8:52:43 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

“Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn’t formed or “born” until the day of Pentecost? “

No one permanently was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. No one was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, which comprises the Church of all believers of all time. Until that moment, there was no Church.


11 posted on 02/11/2013 8:53:51 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Of course believers that were baptized were saved prior to Pentecost. The Church already existed. Christ told Peter while Christ was still in mortality that he was building His Church upon “This rock”. There is some discussion on what “This rock” is but for this discussion it makes no difference. The church was built and there were members of it.

Jesus Himself had already said the only entrance to the Church was through Baptism and Jesus Himself said that He was building the Church upon “this Rock”. What more do we need?

Pentecost helped the Church grow rapidly but it had nothing to do with the organization of the Church.

This is not a subject I have ever before contemplated. I certainly haven't worried about the salvation of those who personally associated with The Lord, I have a feeling they are well taken care of.

12 posted on 02/11/2013 8:54:50 AM PST by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: SoothingDave; All

I received dogma, but no proof.

It was generally agreed that the believers were already saved before the Day of Pentecost, and that believers are those who constitute the Body of Christ.

Given the aforementioned, no one explained how the believers constituted the body of Christ), yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t born until the Day of Pentecost.

They parsed words and issued dogmatic statements yet did not explain how it was yet wasn’t yet was on the Day of Pentecost. Like it was nebulous yet in a state of pre-existence - like it was semi-solid.


13 posted on 02/11/2013 8:58:06 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Didn't you just post this?

Why yes. Yes you did.

 

Were those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost already believers (saved) before that Day arrived?
2/5/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist
 

Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 8:54:39 AM by Laissez-faire capitalist

Many saw Jesus ascend into heaven on the Mount. Before this, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power. Not many days afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire appeared above those who had assembled together, and they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?

If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.

Secondly, this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers (and thus a part of and the formers of the body) - before the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

Third, this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost.

Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question...


 

14 posted on 02/11/2013 9:07:09 AM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Theo
What is “The Church”? Isn’t “The Church” the people of God, the people whom the Lord has called to Himself?

What is THE distinguishing mark of a NT believer in Jesus Christ?

It is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The OT saints did not have this permanent indwelling as Jesus told the apostles in the upper room that this ministry and presence was still future. "He will be with you and will be in you ... forever."

That indwelling did not begin until Pentecost ... therefore, the church started at Pentecost.

I really don't understand why this fella keeps posting this rubbish ... as if there is some huge theological problem that is being discussed here.

15 posted on 02/11/2013 9:07:09 AM PST by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: Theo
What is “The Church”? Isn’t “The Church” the people of God, the people whom the Lord has called to Himself? If so, “The Church” began back with Abraham, when God first made a covenant with Man.

Israel and the church are distinct, in bible prophecy and historically.

16 posted on 02/11/2013 9:09:40 AM PST by D Rider
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

One, look at the transfiguration.

Two, Jesus, after his death and subsequent resurrection, broke the gates of hell, releasing those held therein. The patriarchs were not saved until after Christ’s death and resurrection.

The biblical quote for this is Ephesians 4:9.

“Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the “lower parts of the earth?”, ie Hades and Sheol.


17 posted on 02/11/2013 9:10:26 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
the word used for "church" is ἐκκλησία (ekklésia).

this is the same word used in the septuagint (a greek translation of the old testament which was written 200 years before Christ) and it is used to refer to religious gatherings or assemblies.
(see for example in the Septuagint Deuteronomy 31:30)

"Church" was a word invented by someone intending to create division.


this word is equivalent to קָהָל in the hebrew

in Acts 7:38 this word is translated as 'congregation'
18 posted on 02/11/2013 9:21:41 AM PST by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Just my observations on the continuity between dedication of Solomon’s temple and the NT church:

Old Covenant temple - priests were consecrated prior to dedication of the temple, including ritual washing, particularly of hands and feet, sacrifice of spotless offerings and grain/bread offering, consecrated priests and 120 priests bearing trumpets. During the ceremony, the glory of God filled the temple.

New Covenant church - disciples were “consecrated” prior to pentecost, by footwashing, wine and bread sacraments and crucifixion of Jesus, presence of disciples and 120 other followers in the upper room. While present in unity and singular purpose, the Spirit of God filled the new covenant church as though baptizing with tongues of fire.

God is consistent in His actions. Pentecost was as important for the new covenant church as the dedication of Solomon’s temple was for the Hebrew nation.


19 posted on 02/11/2013 9:23:50 AM PST by rusty millet
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To: libdestroyer
sorry, you've got it wrong

In the Church the atonement for sins is Christ's salvation. The High Priest is Jesus Christ who is present at every Divine Liturgy (Mass) in the form of the Eucharist

And no, Salvation in the Church comes from Christ it is not from your works

There's no gospel or Christ in your beliefs, right?

20 posted on 02/11/2013 9:25:46 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
"I received dogma, but no proof."

It might clear things up if you consider that the 'Church' formed means the organized Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as the body of Christ. The 'saved' is the fate of individuals. The proof is the existence of a 2000+ year old Church.

21 posted on 02/11/2013 9:27:13 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Responsibility2nd; Laissez-faire capitalist
Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?

I wasn't aware that 'The Church' advocated speaking in tongues.

22 posted on 02/11/2013 9:37:50 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: wafflehouse
A church is a congregation of sinners. I don't think it is the same thing as the 'Church' that is referred to here in this thread.
23 posted on 02/11/2013 9:40:20 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: libdestroyer

Judaism: High Priest
Catholicism: Pope

Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works

PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SAY WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES, YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.


24 posted on 02/11/2013 9:43:16 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Jesus establishes the Church:

Matthew 16:[15] Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [Matthew 16:19] [Latin] [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There are well over 33,000 sects “scattered” outside the one Church founded by Christ.


25 posted on 02/11/2013 9:46:05 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: SoothingDave

With subjects like this, there are never enough answers...until everyone agrees with you and says you are right.


26 posted on 02/11/2013 9:50:53 AM PST by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: raygunfan

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


27 posted on 02/11/2013 9:50:53 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: jacknhoo; Charles Henrickson; bcsco; lightman

“And he took the cup and said, Drink of this, all of you. This cup is the NEW Covenent in My blood.”

The Ekklesia of God is that locality where His Word (Logos), is rightly preached and where His Sacraments are ritely practiced. The Feast of Pentecost celebrates the Ekklesia of the post-resurrection (new berith) where-in sins are immediately forgiven through the Sacraments and the preaching of the Gospel.

There has always been a Christian ekklesia wherever there has been God’s forgiveness of Sins through Christ (pre- and post- incarnate.) The Old Testament shows God forgiving even the sins of Adam and Eve through Christ (Gen 3:15). Fast forward to many examples, not limited to: The Snake on the pole (christ typology), the parting of the Red Sea (baptism) and David’s repentance (direct forgiveness).

The marks of the Church, Gospel preaching and Sacraments reverently administered, have existed from time memorial. The change we have for the last 2000+ years is simply because God inserted Himself, bodily, into time to be that thing we could not - perfect.


28 posted on 02/11/2013 10:10:14 AM PST by Cletus.D.Yokel (*Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alteration: The acronym explains the science.)
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To: verga
Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.

So you cant know if you have it ... and you know for sure that you cant know ... that is what you do know for sure, that you cant know ...

1 John 5:11-13
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Present tense all around ...

Doesnt say anything about "He who has the Son will find out if he has the life when he passes from this one" ... or ... "Upon death we find out if we have the life" ...

Seems like there are only two possibilities here ... either the person who is saved and has no assurance is not a mature believer ... or they are not a believer at all.

29 posted on 02/11/2013 10:19:03 AM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: stuartcr

It’s like a European Union referendum - keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want.


30 posted on 02/11/2013 10:33:12 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

While Jesus was with them, he was their teacher, after Jesus left he had told them to wait for the Holy Spirit to come to teach them by His indwelling Spirit. Always with believers, He will never leave us or forsake us, in Jesus name, amen.

Sinners need the Holy Spirit to teach them understanding and truth as they read and study the Scriptures. Thank Thee LORD, for thy grace, in Jesus name, amen.


31 posted on 02/11/2013 10:36:22 AM PST by geologist (" If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15)
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To: dartuser
1 Cor 15:1
I am reminding you, brothers and sisters,
of the gospel I preached to you,
which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you,

I guess Paul didn't know that being "saved" was a one-time thing about which we have "assurance."

32 posted on 02/11/2013 10:37:16 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

One key to figuring out the answer to what you ask (you stated it incorrectly, btw) is found in the knowledge that there are sets of persons IN HEAVEN, there because of what Jesus did for us. The bride of Christ is not the only set of those from humanity seen in Heaven revealed in The Revelation of John. You will get lots of noise by asking on an open forum, so go to your Bible and ask His SPirit to open your mind/heart to His reality. He is not bound by temporal limitations which plague we humans.


33 posted on 02/11/2013 10:41:27 AM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Acts 2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what

seemed to be tongues of fire

that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to

speak in other tongues[a]

(a. Acts 2:4 Or languages; also in verse 11)

as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because

each one heard their own language being spoken.

7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God

in our own tongues!”

12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

It means that in this case tongues means language.

It means that “actual fire” as we know it, wasn’t dancing about, it was something mysterious, something we have no comprehension for, something heavenly that we have no words to accurately describe.

As far as what exactly defines “the church” or when it started, WHO CARES????

We won’t know for sure who is included in “the church”, until judgment day. If your name is written in the book of life, you are IN. If not...... eternal torment in Hell


34 posted on 02/11/2013 10:42:43 AM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: libdestroyer; All
Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works

Take your pick. No gospel found in either case.


As I understand it, Catholics believe it's not by works, but by Jesus Christ but Jesus requires works in order to give salvation.

Which is correct as described by Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, in 90% of the New Testament.

Claiming that all you have to do is believe in Jesus and that means Salvation goes against not only the instructions of Jesus Himself but all the prophets since Adam. To claim this you literally have to disavow the New Testament.

I'm totally baffled by this claim.
35 posted on 02/11/2013 10:42:43 AM PST by MeOnTheBeach
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To: dartuser
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

From dictionary.com:

may 1 [mey] Show IPA auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person may, 2nd may or ( Archaic ) may·est or mayst, 3rd may; present plural may; past might. 1. (used to express possibility): It may rain.

Notice it says possibility, the third definition refers to a contingency.

Nothing absolute there at all.

Paul makes several references to the possibility of losing salvation, including running the race till the end, and the olive branches being removed from the tree.

36 posted on 02/11/2013 10:44:40 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: dartuser

What’s tricky is that Jesus speaks of “the church” before Pentecost, as though it is something that already exists. See, for example, Matthew 18:17.

It all hinges on the meaning of the word “ekklesia,” which we translate as “church.” At its most basic, it simply means “assembly.”

People have “assembled” in the name of God for millennia ...


37 posted on 02/11/2013 11:17:14 AM PST by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: verga
Nothing absolute there at all.

Verse 11 and 12, which is the context of 13 (which you ignored) is absolute.

These are present tense verbs! ... The one who has the Son ... has (present active indicative) life. Verse 13 uses the subjunctive because there is the possibility that there are those who do not have the Son, continuing the thought from verse 12!

38 posted on 02/11/2013 11:21:56 AM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: SoothingDave
Paul seemed to know he was saved.

by grace you have been saved), (Eph 2:5 NAS)

... perfect passive participle ... past tense, ongoing continuous results.

There are so many others ...

I just find it curious that those on your side fight so hard to maintain a formidable doubt concerning a persons salvation. If eternal life could be lost, as you seem to suggest, it wouldnt be eternal would it?

39 posted on 02/11/2013 11:32:56 AM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: dartuser
Verse 11 and 12, which is the context of 13 (which you ignored) is absolute.

and verse 13 makes sure that you realize that it is a possibility if you continue to have the Son.

Tell me where is Judas now?

40 posted on 02/11/2013 11:35:33 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Theo
What’s tricky is that Jesus speaks of “the church” before Pentecost, as though it is something that already exists.

But He also speaks of it as something that He would build in the future (Matt. 16:18) ... so that is hardly an argument that is decisive. Esp. in light of the fact that we have already exhausted every occurance of the term "church" in the gospels (only 2, both in Matthew).

I have to go back to the indwelling of the HS as the distinctive mark of the NT believer. "He will be with you ... and will be in you ... forever." That didn't happen until Pentecost.

41 posted on 02/11/2013 11:42:31 AM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: verga
if you continue to have the Son.

Like I said ... if you could loose eternal life, its not eternal. You seem to be arguing that someone could have eternal life, then the next minute they dont, then they can have it again, then loose it again.

Since John tells us that he wrote the letter ... so we would know ... perhaps you should read the letter and see what he mentions ...

For example ... he mentions:

If we say we have fellowship with Him, yet walk in darkness
This is how we know we have come to know Him, by keeping His commandments
He who is born of God does not continue in sin
This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us; He has given assurance to us from His Spirit

etc. etc. Test yourself to see whether you are in the faith.

42 posted on 02/11/2013 11:59:40 AM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: dartuser
Like I said ... if you could loose eternal life, its not eternal. You seem to be arguing that someone could have eternal life, then the next minute they dont, then they can have it again, then loose it again.

From my post #10: Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.

No one knows till they hear; "Well done good and faithful servant".

43 posted on 02/11/2013 12:14:27 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: dartuser

You never answered this question: Tell me where is Judas now?


44 posted on 02/11/2013 12:17:42 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: dartuser

There are conditionals that your side likes to ignore. You can know you are in a state of grace if you are living like the Scripture tells you. It is true that those who will be saved will be, but it is presumption to assume that set of people must include you.

You know it’s you if you live it, not because you have “assurance” from an intellectual reading of the Bible that you can’t fail.


45 posted on 02/11/2013 12:25:17 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Mr. Know It All

you, my friend, have made the best case :) LOL


46 posted on 02/11/2013 12:27:26 PM PST by libdestroyer
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To: verga
Tell me where is Judas now?

Hell.

Are you really going to argue that Judas was saved and then lost it?

47 posted on 02/11/2013 1:01:33 PM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: dartuser
Are you really going to argue that Judas was saved and then lost it?

Actually according to your criteria he should be in Heaven.

Tell me EXACTLY What criteria he was lacking?

He certainly believed in Jesus. He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself. Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?

48 posted on 02/11/2013 1:16:39 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Hebrews 11:13 "All these [Jews, who through their deeds proved themselves faithful to God] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them."

Lk 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."

We are recipients of the New Covenant's greater revelation compared to the Jews whose trust in God was reckoned to them as righteousness. We, more timely born, are able to believe in something the world has already seen, namely Jesus Christ, His death and propitiation for the sins of all. Jews were promised a Messiah, but did not know, nor were then partakers of the salvation which would only unfold later. Believing Christians do partake of the Gospel's salvation message, but since that Pentecost, none (to our knowledge) have experienced the promised heavenly-body ressurrection.

Does the Bible say Christ died and paid for the sins of only those who believed after that Pentecost following His death and resurrection? No. To wit, 1 Peter 3:18ff:

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient

(Emphases are mine.)

HF

49 posted on 02/11/2013 1:16:56 PM PST by holden (Alter or abolish it yet?)
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To: verga
Tell me EXACTLY What criteria he was lacking?

Repent and believe the gospel.

He certainly believed in Jesus.

So do the demons ... they didnt repent either.

He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself.

Not sure how you get there ... Judas participated in the baptism of others ... how is that evidence that he was baptized, not to mention saved?

Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?

What are you arguing here? That because he SAW the miracles that Jesus did that he must have been saved?

Can you point to anything that suggests that Judas ever believed in Christ as the Messiah, that he ever repented and believed in Him or demonstrated that he lived under His Lordship? I can list all kinds of evidence that he didnt.

Judas is the perfect example of a false convert. Someone who claims to believe, who plays the part, who knows what to say, who can converse the faith with other people ... but were never regenerated ... because they have never done the one thing that Jesus requires of them ...

50 posted on 02/11/2013 1:43:29 PM PST by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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