Skip to comments.Explain how the church wasn't born until Pentecost if the believers were already saved pre-Pentecost
Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
If those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost (the 120 who assembled together before they spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and before Peter preached his sermon) were already saved, were believers, had seen him ascend to heaven, etc, and the Body of Christ (the church) then must already have been in existence before the Day of Pentecost.
Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn't formed or "born" until the day of Pentecost?
Was the church just halfway outside the womb pre-Day of Pentecost? Did it have to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be born? How???
This is in response to some answers (and email) to the previous thread that I posted concerning this topic.
The believers were saved before the Day of Pentecost, thus constituting the body of Christ, yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t formed until the Day of Pentecost?
Halfway outside the womb until that day?
Judaism: Constant temporary atonement for sins
Catholicism: Constant temporary atonement for sins
Judaism: High Priest
Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works
Take your pick. No gospel found in either case.
Salvation is atonement
Church is fellowship
Seems like the Church wasn’t formed until the Holy Spirit came to guide it forever. Remarkable growth and consistency from a start of 12.
Didn’t you get enough answers last week?
Judaism: No bacon
With the greatest respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters, I choose Catholicism.
Yashua was the Comforter while on earth. He did say He would not leave us alone but will send another comforter to be always with you - The Holy Spirit. You come to Yashua through the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The progression was continual.
What is “The Church”? Isn’t “The Church” the people of God, the people whom the Lord has called to Himself? If so, “The Church” began back with Abraham, when God first made a covenant with Man.
Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.
Second you are forming in the womb for nine months before your actual birth. You are not half out of the womb are you?
“Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn’t formed or “born” until the day of Pentecost? “
No one permanently was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. No one was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, which comprises the Church of all believers of all time. Until that moment, there was no Church.
Jesus Himself had already said the only entrance to the Church was through Baptism and Jesus Himself said that He was building the Church upon “this Rock”. What more do we need?
Pentecost helped the Church grow rapidly but it had nothing to do with the organization of the Church.
This is not a subject I have ever before contemplated. I certainly haven't worried about the salvation of those who personally associated with The Lord, I have a feeling they are well taken care of.
I received dogma, but no proof.
It was generally agreed that the believers were already saved before the Day of Pentecost, and that believers are those who constitute the Body of Christ.
Given the aforementioned, no one explained how the believers constituted the body of Christ), yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t born until the Day of Pentecost.
They parsed words and issued dogmatic statements yet did not explain how it was yet wasn’t yet was on the Day of Pentecost. Like it was nebulous yet in a state of pre-existence - like it was semi-solid.
Why yes. Yes you did.
Were those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost already believers (saved) before that Day arrived?
2/5/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist
Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 8:54:39 AM by Laissez-faire capitalist
Many saw Jesus ascend into heaven on the Mount. Before this, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power. Not many days afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire appeared above those who had assembled together, and they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?
If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.
Secondly, this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers (and thus a part of and the formers of the body) - before the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Third, this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost.
Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question...
What is THE distinguishing mark of a NT believer in Jesus Christ?
It is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The OT saints did not have this permanent indwelling as Jesus told the apostles in the upper room that this ministry and presence was still future. "He will be with you and will be in you ... forever."
That indwelling did not begin until Pentecost ... therefore, the church started at Pentecost.
I really don't understand why this fella keeps posting this rubbish ... as if there is some huge theological problem that is being discussed here.
Israel and the church are distinct, in bible prophecy and historically.
One, look at the transfiguration.
Two, Jesus, after his death and subsequent resurrection, broke the gates of hell, releasing those held therein. The patriarchs were not saved until after Christ’s death and resurrection.
The biblical quote for this is Ephesians 4:9.
“Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the “lower parts of the earth?”, ie Hades and Sheol.
Just my observations on the continuity between dedication of Solomon’s temple and the NT church:
Old Covenant temple - priests were consecrated prior to dedication of the temple, including ritual washing, particularly of hands and feet, sacrifice of spotless offerings and grain/bread offering, consecrated priests and 120 priests bearing trumpets. During the ceremony, the glory of God filled the temple.
New Covenant church - disciples were “consecrated” prior to pentecost, by footwashing, wine and bread sacraments and crucifixion of Jesus, presence of disciples and 120 other followers in the upper room. While present in unity and singular purpose, the Spirit of God filled the new covenant church as though baptizing with tongues of fire.
God is consistent in His actions. Pentecost was as important for the new covenant church as the dedication of Solomon’s temple was for the Hebrew nation.
In the Church the atonement for sins is Christ's salvation. The High Priest is Jesus Christ who is present at every Divine Liturgy (Mass) in the form of the Eucharist
And no, Salvation in the Church comes from Christ it is not from your works
There's no gospel or Christ in your beliefs, right?
It might clear things up if you consider that the 'Church' formed means the organized Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as the body of Christ. The 'saved' is the fate of individuals. The proof is the existence of a 2000+ year old Church.
I wasn't aware that 'The Church' advocated speaking in tongues.
Judaism: High Priest
Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works
PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SAY WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES, YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.
Jesus establishes the Church:
Matthew 16: Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.  And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [Matthew 16:19] [Latin]  Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
There are well over 33,000 sects “scattered” outside the one Church founded by Christ.
With subjects like this, there are never enough answers...until everyone agrees with you and says you are right.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“And he took the cup and said, Drink of this, all of you. This cup is the NEW Covenent in My blood.”
The Ekklesia of God is that locality where His Word (Logos), is rightly preached and where His Sacraments are ritely practiced. The Feast of Pentecost celebrates the Ekklesia of the post-resurrection (new berith) where-in sins are immediately forgiven through the Sacraments and the preaching of the Gospel.
There has always been a Christian ekklesia wherever there has been God’s forgiveness of Sins through Christ (pre- and post- incarnate.) The Old Testament shows God forgiving even the sins of Adam and Eve through Christ (Gen 3:15). Fast forward to many examples, not limited to: The Snake on the pole (christ typology), the parting of the Red Sea (baptism) and David’s repentance (direct forgiveness).
The marks of the Church, Gospel preaching and Sacraments reverently administered, have existed from time memorial. The change we have for the last 2000+ years is simply because God inserted Himself, bodily, into time to be that thing we could not - perfect.
So you cant know if you have it ... and you know for sure that you cant know ... that is what you do know for sure, that you cant know ...
1 John 5:11-13
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
Present tense all around ...
Doesnt say anything about "He who has the Son will find out if he has the life when he passes from this one" ... or ... "Upon death we find out if we have the life" ...
Seems like there are only two possibilities here ... either the person who is saved and has no assurance is not a mature believer ... or they are not a believer at all.
It’s like a European Union referendum - keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want.
While Jesus was with them, he was their teacher, after Jesus left he had told them to wait for the Holy Spirit to come to teach them by His indwelling Spirit. Always with believers, He will never leave us or forsake us, in Jesus name, amen.
Sinners need the Holy Spirit to teach them understanding and truth as they read and study the Scriptures. Thank Thee LORD, for thy grace, in Jesus name, amen.
I guess Paul didn't know that being "saved" was a one-time thing about which we have "assurance."
One key to figuring out the answer to what you ask (you stated it incorrectly, btw) is found in the knowledge that there are sets of persons IN HEAVEN, there because of what Jesus did for us. The bride of Christ is not the only set of those from humanity seen in Heaven revealed in The Revelation of John. You will get lots of noise by asking on an open forum, so go to your Bible and ask His SPirit to open your mind/heart to His reality. He is not bound by temporal limitations which plague we humans.
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what
seemed to be tongues of fire
that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to
speak in other tongues[a]
(a. Acts 2:4 Or languages; also in verse 11)
as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because
each one heard their own language being spoken.
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: Arent all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabswe hear them declaring the wonders of God
in our own tongues!
12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, What does this mean?
It means that in this case tongues means language.
It means that “actual fire” as we know it, wasn’t dancing about, it was something mysterious, something we have no comprehension for, something heavenly that we have no words to accurately describe.
As far as what exactly defines “the church” or when it started, WHO CARES????
We won’t know for sure who is included in “the church”, until judgment day. If your name is written in the book of life, you are IN. If not...... eternal torment in Hell
may 1 [mey] Show IPA auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person may, 2nd may or ( Archaic ) may·est or mayst, 3rd may; present plural may; past might. 1. (used to express possibility): It may rain.
Notice it says possibility, the third definition refers to a contingency.
Nothing absolute there at all.
Paul makes several references to the possibility of losing salvation, including running the race till the end, and the olive branches being removed from the tree.
What’s tricky is that Jesus speaks of “the church” before Pentecost, as though it is something that already exists. See, for example, Matthew 18:17.
It all hinges on the meaning of the word “ekklesia,” which we translate as “church.” At its most basic, it simply means “assembly.”
People have “assembled” in the name of God for millennia ...
Verse 11 and 12, which is the context of 13 (which you ignored) is absolute.
These are present tense verbs! ... The one who has the Son ... has (present active indicative) life. Verse 13 uses the subjunctive because there is the possibility that there are those who do not have the Son, continuing the thought from verse 12!
by grace you have been saved), (Eph 2:5 NAS)
... perfect passive participle ... past tense, ongoing continuous results.
There are so many others ...
I just find it curious that those on your side fight so hard to maintain a formidable doubt concerning a persons salvation. If eternal life could be lost, as you seem to suggest, it wouldnt be eternal would it?
and verse 13 makes sure that you realize that it is a possibility if you continue to have the Son.
Tell me where is Judas now?
But He also speaks of it as something that He would build in the future (Matt. 16:18) ... so that is hardly an argument that is decisive. Esp. in light of the fact that we have already exhausted every occurance of the term "church" in the gospels (only 2, both in Matthew).
I have to go back to the indwelling of the HS as the distinctive mark of the NT believer. "He will be with you ... and will be in you ... forever." That didn't happen until Pentecost.
Like I said ... if you could loose eternal life, its not eternal. You seem to be arguing that someone could have eternal life, then the next minute they dont, then they can have it again, then loose it again.
Since John tells us that he wrote the letter ... so we would know ... perhaps you should read the letter and see what he mentions ...
For example ... he mentions:
If we say we have fellowship with Him, yet walk in darkness
This is how we know we have come to know Him, by keeping His commandments
He who is born of God does not continue in sin
This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us; He has given assurance to us from His Spirit
etc. etc. Test yourself to see whether you are in the faith.
From my post #10: Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.
No one knows till they hear; "Well done good and faithful servant".
You never answered this question: Tell me where is Judas now?
There are conditionals that your side likes to ignore. You can know you are in a state of grace if you are living like the Scripture tells you. It is true that those who will be saved will be, but it is presumption to assume that set of people must include you.
You know it’s you if you live it, not because you have “assurance” from an intellectual reading of the Bible that you can’t fail.
you, my friend, have made the best case :) LOL
Are you really going to argue that Judas was saved and then lost it?
Actually according to your criteria he should be in Heaven.
Tell me EXACTLY What criteria he was lacking?
He certainly believed in Jesus. He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself. Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?
Lk 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."
We are recipients of the New Covenant's greater revelation compared to the Jews whose trust in God was reckoned to them as righteousness. We, more timely born, are able to believe in something the world has already seen, namely Jesus Christ, His death and propitiation for the sins of all. Jews were promised a Messiah, but did not know, nor were then partakers of the salvation which would only unfold later. Believing Christians do partake of the Gospel's salvation message, but since that Pentecost, none (to our knowledge) have experienced the promised heavenly-body ressurrection.
Does the Bible say Christ died and paid for the sins of only those who believed after that Pentecost following His death and resurrection? No. To wit, 1 Peter 3:18ff:
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient
(Emphases are mine.)
Repent and believe the gospel.
He certainly believed in Jesus.
So do the demons ... they didnt repent either.
He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself.
Not sure how you get there ... Judas participated in the baptism of others ... how is that evidence that he was baptized, not to mention saved?
Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?
What are you arguing here? That because he SAW the miracles that Jesus did that he must have been saved?
Can you point to anything that suggests that Judas ever believed in Christ as the Messiah, that he ever repented and believed in Him or demonstrated that he lived under His Lordship? I can list all kinds of evidence that he didnt.
Judas is the perfect example of a false convert. Someone who claims to believe, who plays the part, who knows what to say, who can converse the faith with other people ... but were never regenerated ... because they have never done the one thing that Jesus requires of them ...